Why having a dedicated MT and dedicated OT is a TERRIBLE idea

[Kalise]

TBN is literally intervetion, both works simillary and archives the same result, and SE give WAR a aoe shield, they did this in some degree this expansion, cover is the only mechanic that remain exclusively to PLD and is part of his identity like the block mechanic.

Neither The Blackest Night nor Shake it Off work like Intervention.

In case you're unaware, Intervention is 10% DR plus 50% of the effect of Rampart or Sentinel you have active.

Meaning that PLD can pop Rampart + Intervention for 20% DR for their target. Or Sentinel + Intervention for 30% DR for their target. Or heck, Rampart + Sentinel + Intervention for 40% DR for their target.

TBN is only ever 10% of your maximum HP as a shield for the target. DRK has no health buffs to make it stronger. It will never let a MT soak a TB on its own.

Shake it Off is closer in that it scales with WAR's CD's but even then it's 8% and scales 4% per CD (With the effects being Thrill of Battle (Often used for DPS increase with Unheaval), Vengeance, Raw Intuition and Inner Beast (Meaning needing to be in Defiance and tank your DPS by using Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave) for up to 24% max health shield. Not accounting for the fact that you'll never want to use this for the TB and will only ever want to use this skill when a RB is coming so you build up LB from the entire party having their shields broken.

Also, saying "Cover is part of their identity" doesn't alleviate the fact that this "Identity" is part of the major imbalance within tanks because it's gifting one tank a special and very potent skill that will always make it superior to other options while it has a monopoly on that type of skill.

If you keep Cover as it currently works where it allows PLD to have an additional 20% DR CD skill (That also then allows their own personal CD's to work to prevent the damage of the active tank) then you will always have an imbalance with tanks. Even if you make another "OT" sub-role job to pair with them, if they don't have Cover or something like it, they are destined to stay in the garbage bin (Outside nerfs to make PLD complete garbage outside of this skill)

That is the problem. Inequality within the tools that Tanks have available to perform their basic duties.

best support and stuff like that are identity per se, being a dps tank was a strong identity for WAR all this years

Yes, DPS tank was an identity for WAR. Until PLD's and DRK's complained that they're just inferior at being Tanks when DPS is a thing people care about.

Same with "Best support". So long as you can call a job "Best support" you've literally got an imbalance with the OT role.

its the best? depend, in terms of dps against utility it is, you can see the DPS BLM vs bard or ninja for example

The difference between these DPS jobs and Tanks, is that no Tank is bringing buffs to party DPS in lieu of personal DPS.

All 3 tanks have all of their DPS tied into their personal damage. No-one has a buff or debuff that amplifies party DPS.

The closest thing we have is how PLD/WAR's AoE shields generate LB to increase party damage by increasing the frequency of DPS LB's.

Also, this is what I was referring to with "Overall DPS" - Both in terms of contrasting burst vs sustained personal damage, but also personal vs party DPS output - In the case that any tank did have some of its damage output in the form of support skills to amplify the party.

i consider all tanks are pretty unique in the way they mitigate damage

You can consider that all you like. It won't change the fact that the core CD's for tanks are:

Rampart
Vengeance/Shadow Wall/Sentinel
Holmgang/Living Dead/Hallowed Ground
Intervention
Cover

Everything else is niche (Dark Mind only works vs magic damage. Raw Intuition only works against AA's) or is active mitigation (TBN/Sheltron... Inner Beast )

i dont agree every tank need a way to aid the party in similar ways as PLD, 2 meaby can share that stuff like WAR and PLD both do ae shielding, but not all of then.

And then we're right back to the inequality of tank kits again.

At the very core, all tanks need to perform all of their functions at a similar level.

These functions are and will always be:

1) Enmity Gain (Notably, Snap Enmity)
2) DPS
3) Mitigating Tankbusters
4) Providing support while "OT" (More accurately, while not the active tank)
5) Mitigating "Fluff" damage (I.e. Auto Attacks and/or Raidbusters)

If any of these things are not equal, there will be a Tank imbalance and you will see 1 (Or more) job get dumpstered. Sometimes you might be able to get situations where a pair of tanks can balance out an inequality (Such as how WAR pulls while PLD provides support) but in the grand scheme of things that sort of balancing is doomed to fail, especially with a new job coming into the mix.

i disagree, its pretty hard to balance tanks in that way

It is not.

The fact that they've already balanced DPS between Tanks and already made Rampart and 30% DR CD's baseline for all tanks shows how it is possible to do things like this.

Right now, the major things creating imbalance are:

* The inequality between Invulnerability skills. (Making WAR the de facto best "MT")
* PLD's having all of the Support skills (Making them the de facto best "OT")
* PLD's having crap snap enmity (Making them the only tank that sucks at pulling)

stuff like cover and intervetion dont break tank balance as my opinion, it dint in ARR when we only have WAR and PLD and it dint matter bcs there was only 2.

Tank imbalance didn't affect the game back when there was only 2 tanks and they were both run because then you had the best of both of the classes.

Sound argument

Now, think about how much Tank imbalance affected the game when there was a choice between which Tanks you ran in a party. I.e. HW and now SB.

the flaws of current tank desing are WAR being top tier MT and PLD being top tier OT, and DRK in the middle master of nothing with i agree, but if they push DRK to compete against WAR for the "MT" with similar capabilitys and GUN for the "OT" with similar capabilitys to PLD and all having equal snap agro so you will not care at all who take the place of "MT" and who take the "OT" and have something to avoid bring 2 "MT-OT" i can see they will archive much much more easily with less effort compared to the current system or "one for all- all for one" if you preffer call it, at leas in my opinion but i respect yours of course.

But the thing is, this will never be the case. Not so long as they're being balanced around inequal kits.

DRK will never be able to compete with WAR unless Living Dead is made to work exactly like Holmgang (Or better) - This includes if Holmgang was pushed to a 4 minute CD the same as Living Dead, Holm is just better because it doesn't have that forced heal shield effect (That requires 100% max health to be healed)

GNB will never be able to compete with PLD unless they have Intervention and Cover. (Also, if they did get both Intervention and Cover, it would make GNB + PLD the best composition because then you'd have more tools to use to bypass TB's)

Hence why it's much easier to balance multiple jobs around the same basic toolkit to accomplish their core duties. That's why things like standardized Rampart and 30% DR CD's are very good for tank balance and why unequal things like the invulnerability skills are horrible for balance.

[shao32]

snip

sorry if i don't quete everything by parts, phone and such.

TBN is the intervetion counterpart since both skills work similary, both are single target protection of short duration, both have quick recast, and both skills get boosted by his own tank, TBN with DRK hp and intervetion by other CDs skills, im pretty aware how intervetion works still his boost defense is limited by the recast of such skill (rampart, sentinel) vs TBN having his full protection always.

WAR still have slashing debuff but apart of that defensive utility make and edge on progresion and less skilled raids to dealt with the big raid aoes and other mechanics, DRK lacks any impactfull utility so by default should have more dps to compensate that or get reprisal back.

we use to have foresight/rampart/shadowskin and we din't need at all the blant change of making rampart a role skill, mitigation wise we good with the exception that PLD need more magic mitigation, WAR was good with foresight and its not only holmgang that make WAR the best MT, it defiance and his powerhouse despite not being optimal its a edge and none of the other 2 can compete against that.

i doubt you, me and anyone here really understand the process of buff/debuff anything in this game, making a clone army with diferent paintings in the armor don't solve anything either since you will still want it to be diferent enough to feel unique somehow, and archive that only with dps rotation is blant bcs we never have a complex dps rotation
for much we love to discuss about tank balance nobody here is a expert, if it was so easy then they will never have such problems in the first place, holmgang, living and hallowed are already counterparts, what separate this skills are just numbers and they complety fail to balance this ones despite bein so straightforward and obvious, same problem happen with vengeance, shadow wall and sentinel, and now ppl are complaining sentinel its not worthy of the recast.

now utility really depends of the content too, cover don't break anything bcs PLD still have to use CDs to survive the hit so it's not like holmgang that just roll over mechanics several times in a fight saving CDs, intervetion the same, at basic levels its not better that TBN but the moment you have to spend you own CDs its being equal to make a tank swap, the diference cover save that swaping process transfering damage to PLD and in a normal process you just swap and use you own CDs directly.

the last thing, let's face it, it will be never be a perfect balance, it will be the always the rule of 2 like the sith and if they balance with couples obviously DRK have to compete against holmgang (if they pair it with WAR of course) but its not like holmgang aren't going to get ajustment this expansion, some skills are go to disapear, meaby we lose our invu meaby not, meaby PLD loose veil meaby not, ect ect , they are looking at tank stances, meaby are going to be usefull during all the fight, tank dps its going to see a nerf, our main stat and the acc problem too, meaby they get rid of the silly role skill system, we are going to see a lot of changes.

but again it will dosen't matter if GUN compete against PLD they are not going to be the best comp if the MT-OT barrier is there, of course in theory, in my opinion its better, i preffer it over having a clone army with diferent weapons, but i will still being DRK no matter what they do.

[Kalise]

TBN is the intervetion counterpart since both skills work similary, both are single target protection of short duration, both have quick recast, and both skills get boosted by his own tank, TBN with DRK hp and intervetion by other CDs skills, im pretty aware how intervetion works still his boost defense is limited by the recast of such skill (rampart, sentinel) vs TBN having his full protection always.

Both are active mitigation effects, yes, but the way that they work is fundamentally different. Given that you'll normally be using them on a Tank to help soak a TB, Intervention wins out because it can be more powerful an effect with combination of other CD's. Whereas TBN is only ever 10% of DRK's max HP (Which will essentially be about equal to the other Tanks. Outside of WAR whom has HP boosts)

At base Intervention is still as potent as TBN (Multiplicative DR stacking aside at least)

WAR still have slashing debuff but apart of that defensive utility make and edge on progresion and less skilled raids to dealt with the big raid aoes and other mechanics, DRK lacks any impactfull utility so by default should have more dps to compensate that or get reprisal back.

Except this is how you unbalance things. For a long time WAR had higher DPS to account for lack of utility. How well did that turn out? Considering how you like to complain about how OP WAR has been for so long, you, of all people, should know how dangerous giving a Tank DPS in lieu of utility is for balance.

its not only holmgang that make WAR the best MT, it defiance and his powerhouse despite not being optimal its a edge and none of the other 2 can compete against that.

For all intents and purposes it is Holmgang that makes WAR the best MT. Defiance while defensively strong, is rarely used. Such is why people often mention that DRK is the current king of self mitigation because TBN is pretty effective in the meta where Tank Stances aren't used outside of the pull.

i doubt you, me and anyone here really understand the process of buff/debuff anything in this game

It's honestly not hard to figure out some things. If I wanted to spend the time, I could even go through ability by ability and adjust numbers to achieve balance. I'm just not getting paid to do that.

making a clone army with diferent paintings in the armor don't solve anything either since you will still want it to be diferent enough to feel unique somehow, and archive that only with dps rotation is blant bcs we never have a complex dps rotation

Except there's much and more that can be utilized to create different feels.

For a start, DPS rotations are ALREADY major differences to playstyle. With WAR being all about maintaining Storm's Eye and gaming their Beast Gauge. With PLD alternating between maximizing Fight or Flight and using Requiescat. With DRK being all about managing MP to use Dark Arts to empower skills as well as weaving in oGCD attacks like Carve and Spit and managing Blood usage.

Outside of that, there can be different flavours of the baseline CD's. For example, how Vengeance has the retaliation damage on it. How Sentinel is stronger but has a longer CD. So long as the baseline effect is the same across the board, tanks will be balanced even with little bonuses for flavour.

Then there's personal utility skills. Things like mobility from Plunge/Onslaught (Vs Tempered Will). There can be something like Interject/Low Blow that provides Tanks with a universal interrupt skill that ignores diminishing returns, each with having some class flavour (For example, DRK could get a shield if interrupting a spell. PLD could get a guaranteed block.)

Things that aren't part of the "Core" tank role are flexible to be made unique or to be given in a variety of flavours to suit the Tank(s) that get it.

if it was so easy then they will never have such problems in the first place

Well, this implies that the balance team is as invested and knowledgeable about Tanks as players. Often this is not the case (See: How literally every WHM saw how terrible the Lily mechanic was from the reveal and how years later, SE still haven't got a clue as to why the mechanic is such garbage)

holmgang, living and hallowed are already counterparts, what separate this skills are just numbers and they complety fail to balance this ones despite bein so straightforward and obvious

These are are actually more complex to balance, because their effects are of different strength.

It's why I don't particularly like them, because they're always going to be a nightmare to balance because of how vastly different each effect is for the same outcome (Not dying to a Tankbuster irregardless of the amount of damage it deals)

now utility really depends of the content too, cover don't break anything bcs PLD still have to use CDs to survive the hit so it's not like holmgang that just roll over mechanics several times in a fight saving CDs, intervetion the same, at basic levels its not better that TBN but the moment you have to spend you own CDs its being equal to make a tank swap, the diference cover save that swaping process transfering damage to PLD and in a normal process you just swap and use you own CDs directly.

Cover and Intervention allows for a party to bypass some Tank Swaps. Since they don't need to actually swap the tank for the damage to be diverted away.

Meanwhile, TBN actually benefits you from tank swapping, because then it becomes 20% max HP instead of 10%. But this means that you're actually following the intended mechanics.

the last thing, let's face it, it will be never be a perfect balance

No, but you can get things pretty close, to the point that only hardcore min/maxers actually care about the differences.

Which is far better than forcing people to play specific comps because you can't be bothered to actually look at the issues behind the role.

but again it will dosen't matter if GUN compete against PLD they are not going to be the best comp if the MT-OT barrier is there, of course in theory, in my opinion its better, i preffer it over having a clone army with diferent weapons, but i will still being DRK no matter what they do.

The thing is, there's so much more balancing that would need to be done in order to make sure that you actually have a "MT-OT barrier" and then in that barrier then also balancing the pairs so you don't just have WAR + PLD dominating the game still.

Meanwhile, as mentioned previously, there's not actually a whole lot that needs to be done to balance out all Tanks between each other, it's mostly just sorting out the glaring inequality between the tools they have. Simple.

Since, it shouldn't even erode their identity. Unless you're telling me that outside of the 1m lower cooldown on Holmgang and existence of Shake it Off that WAR and DRK play exactly the same?

[shao32]

Both are active mitigation effects, yes, but the way that they work is fundamentally different. Given that you'll normally be using them on a Tank to help soak a TB, Intervention wins out because it can be more powerful an effect with combination of other CD's. Whereas TBN is only ever 10% of DRK's max HP (Which will essentially be about equal to the other Tanks. Outside of WAR whom has HP boosts)

At base Intervention is still as potent as TBN (Multiplicative DR stacking aside at least)

by that logic veil and Sio have to be categorized as diferent too, since they work complety diferent from each other.

Except this is how you unbalance things. For a long time WAR had higher DPS to account for lack of utility. How well did that turn out? Considering how you like to complain about how OP WAR has been for so long, you, of all people, should know how dangerous giving a Tank DPS in lieu of utility is for balance.

i never care if WAR dealt more damage if it comes at the cost of utility, the problem that was never the case, WAR have all this time the best dps, holmgang doing his usual stuff and relevant utility, there is nothing bad or wrong if 1 tank have more dps at the cost of utility but WAR just have all of it there me and many others complaing about it.

For all intents and purposes it is Holmgang that makes WAR the best MT. Defiance while defensively strong, is rarely used. Such is why people often mention that DRK is the current king of self mitigation because TBN is pretty effective in the meta where Tank Stances aren't used outside of the pull.

mmm nope, holmgang trivialize certain fights so much and thats a problem yes, but WAR have pretty much universal toolkit, and defiance rules over the the rest tank stances, the fact is the only tank that can enjoy his tank stance in short amount of times with minimun dps lose is a strong point, PLD and DRK will have to eat his penalty no matter what and if we compare all tanks in tank stance WAR just win without even trying.

It's honestly not hard to figure out some things. If I wanted to spend the time, I could even go through ability by ability and adjust numbers to achieve balance. I'm just not getting paid to do that.

you should try to get in to yoship team then meaby he will hire you ^^

Except there's much and more that can be utilized to create different feels.

For a start, DPS rotations are ALREADY major differences to playstyle. With WAR being all about maintaining Storm's Eye and gaming their Beast Gauge. With PLD alternating between maximizing Fight or Flight and using Requiescat. With DRK being all about managing MP to use Dark Arts to empower skills as well as weaving in oGCD attacks like Carve and Spit and managing Blood usage.

i consider WAR and PLD being a copy paste, both have 1 combo they have to use at some time to refresh something, PLD a dot and WAR a buff, then its just spam the other combo "path and royal" until you need to refresh you dot/buff, PLD just need to fir 2 groing in Fight or Flight and WAR just trow an ocasiona fell cleave then the moment comes and its: requiem cast - holy spirit - holy spirit - holy spirit - holy spirit - holy spirit / inner release - fell cleave - fell cleave - fell cleave - fell cleave - fell cleave.

PLD its just more rigid that WAR.

Outside of that, there can be different flavours of the baseline CD's. For example, how Vengeance has the retaliation damage on it. How Sentinel is stronger but has a longer CD. So long as the baseline effect is the same across the board, tanks will be balanced even with little bonuses for flavour.

vengeance its superior for his duration and recast, its not balanced and can't be balanced since you have to keep in mind ohter skills in each tank kit that help to have a better flow.

Then there's personal utility skills. Things like mobility from Plunge/Onslaught (Vs Tempered Will). There can be something like Interject/Low Blow that provides Tanks with a universal interrupt skill that ignores diminishing returns, each with having some class flavour (For example, DRK could get a shield if interrupting a spell. PLD could get a guaranteed block.)

well with you logic that will be a imbalance, since PLD gets a dps gain with shield swipe except you want that being removed.

Things that aren't part of the "Core" tank role are flexible to be made unique or to be given in a variety of flavours to suit the Tank(s) that get it.

i agree and that need to be enchanced but thats will have more limits with you sistem.

Well, this implies that the balance team is as invested and knowledgeable about Tanks as players. Often this is not the case (See: How literally every WHM saw how terrible the Lily mechanic was from the reveal and how years later, SE still haven't got a clue as to why the mechanic is such garbage)

lily mechanic is not a balance problem bcs there is nothing to balance there, its just useless per see and dosent make WHM weaker, more having something useless in they screen.

These are are actually more complex to balance, because their effects are of different strength.

It's why I don't particularly like them, because they're always going to be a nightmare to balance because of how vastly different each effect is for the same outcome (Not dying to a Tankbuster irregardless of the amount of damage it deals)

they are not more complex to balance, the only problem is how much of this can you fit in a encounter? WAR can fit 2-3 more that PLD and DRK just balance the recast, its not so hard

Cover and Intervention allows for a party to bypass some Tank Swaps. Since they don't need to actually swap the tank for the damage to be diverted away.

Meanwhile, TBN actually benefits you from tank swapping, because then it becomes 20% max HP instead of 10%. But this means that you're actually following the intended mechanics.

there is no diference on use cover+intervetion with rampart or sentinel making you co-tank saves CDs and a tank swap where you eat the next TB so you co-tank save CDs, both requires CD managment its just a diferent way to do exactly the same, the diference is instead of use provoke+shirk you use cover+rampart.

No, but you can get things pretty close, to the point that only hardcore min/maxers actually care about the differences.

Which is far better than forcing people to play specific comps because you can't be bothered to actually look at the issues behind the role.

ppl force himself to play a certain comp the meta one, how many times ppl just din't reclute PLD in HW? how many times ppl din't want a DRK on SB? SWB its not going to be diferent if 2 tanks are just the best pll will not want the other 2, if they buff one and replace one in 1 spot then the other 2 complaing and we start over again.

The thing is, there's so much more balancing that would need to be done in order to make sure that you actually have a "MT-OT barrier" and then in that barrier then also balancing the pairs so you don't just have WAR + PLD dominating the game still.

Meanwhile, as mentioned previously, there's not actually a whole lot that needs to be done to balance out all Tanks between each other, it's mostly just sorting out the glaring inequality between the tools they have. Simple.

Since, it shouldn't even erode their identity. Unless you're telling me that outside of the 1m lower cooldown on Holmgang and existence of Shake it Off that WAR and DRK play exactly the same?

not at all, we are going to loose skills and get new ones pretty soon, its the perfect time to do that, the sinergy betwen tanks can change a lot, just remember 4.0, and its obviously are taking this in consideration with all the work that saves bcs its much much more simple have 2 tanks fighting for 1 spot that having 4 for just 2 spots.

nope not at all, but if DRK and WAR can pull the same number of invul in combat it will not matter what you bring, if utility have similar impact, and they mitigation and dps its on par then all is set, i dont see the dificulty here, i see it when you have to pkeep in mind 2 more tanks in the equation.

pd: i think we should considerate the wall texts we are building ^^

[Kalise]

by that logic veil and Sio have to be categorized as diferent too, since they work complety diferent from each other.

Not really. Both of them have roughly the same effect (10% of your max health as a shield from Divine Fail. 8% (+4% per buff consumed) target max health as a shield from SiO)

Baseline is Veil is stronger. But WAR can improve theirs to compete and be slightly better on the tank.

Either way though, these skills are often not used for their mitigation, but the LB they generate.

i never care if WAR dealt more damage if it comes at the cost of utility, the problem that was never the case, WAR have all this time the best dps, holmgang doing his usual stuff and relevant utility

Relevant utility? Such as?

WAR's "Utility" has pretty much only consisted of Holmgang = better cheesing of TB's.

With SB bringing in Shake it Off as an AoE shield after WAR's asked for some utility.

the fact is the only tank that can enjoy his tank stance in short amount of times with minimun dps lose is a strong point, PLD and DRK will have to eat his penalty no matter what and if we compare all tanks in tank stance WAR just win without even trying.

WAR's eat a significant penalty to use Defiance. Since it literally locks them out of their passive crit bonus and Fell Cleaves for 10 seconds.

To say nothing about how WAR's don't actually get any defensive benefit from their defensive stance unless they use Equilibrium or Inner Beast.

Also, when the game revolves around Tanks being in DPS stance 99.99% of the time this isn't even a big factor and in this scenario, both PLD and DRK are superior because their active mitigation (Sheltron and TBN) both work in DPS stance.

Again, this entire situation comes from the balance team not understanding the underlying cause of tank issues. Whereby they kept WAR being unique with its powerful, but stance locked, mitigation. But also tried to bring about homogeny so that WAR's could perma-DPS stance like PLD/DRK.

you should try to get in to yoship team then meaby he will hire you ^^

I know this is a joke, however there's 2 pretty significant blockades to this:

1) My Japanese is not the greatest.

2) SE doesn't want to spend money on FFXIV, so why would they hire someone new? (Since, most of the games problems and limitation would be alleviated if SE spent more of the money that XIV makes actually on XIV instead of siphoning it away to churn out more XV DLC)

well with you logic that will be a imbalance, since PLD gets a dps gain with shield swipe except you want that being removed.

But DRK also gains DPS through getting a shield and thus generating LB.

lily mechanic is not a balance problem bcs there is nothing to balance there, its just useless per see and dosent make WHM weaker, more having something useless in they screen.

It's not an imbalance problem, but the balance team are the ones that work on developing skills and features for classes. The fact that after over 2 years, they still haven't realized what took players like 5 minutes to notice shows the disconnect they can have from roles they don't have interest in.

they are not more complex to balance, the only problem is how much of this can you fit in a encounter? WAR can fit 2-3 more that PLD and DRK just balance the recast, its not so hard

They are. Since if they were all on equal CD, then PLD would be superior, because it outright prevents damage, meaning healers don't need to heal and can continue focusing on DPS.

If they were all on equal CD, then DRK would still be literally the worst, because the mechanics of Living Dead are complete trash.

Like, Hallowed Grounds longer CD is justified because its effect it just so much more potent, it is also more versatile as it prevents sustained damage from needing to be healed too (While Holm/LD only prevent death).

ppl force himself to play a certain comp the meta one

Meta comps become prevalent in this game when there's a significant advantage gained over non-meta. Especially in PuG groups, if they start to enforce meta its usually because there's a significant difference between it and non-meta.

Otherwise, we can state that DRK is fine and in no need of any adjustments because they can still work and clear content. People just force themselves to play with WARs instead.

not at all, we are going to loose skills and get new ones pretty soon, its the perfect time to do that, the sinergy betwen tanks can change a lot, just remember 4.0, and its obviously are taking this in consideration with all the work that saves bcs its much much more simple have 2 tanks fighting for 1 spot that having 4 for just 2 spots.

Except unless you address the underlying balance issues which are prevalent across the entire cast of Tanks, you'll end up setting up a scenario where its 2 tanks fighting for 2 spots because the other 2 are considered garbage in comparison to their "Partner".

If you do address the underlying balance issues, to allow for the 2 tanks in a sub-role to compete. Then you may as well just fix the role in its entirety so it becomes a case of "Bring the player, not the job"

Where you won't have "4 Tanks competing for 2 slots" but instead just have Tank players competing for the 2 spots and their preferred job being irrelevant outside of not stacking 2x the same Tank (Though, even that might still actually work, so long as there aren't non-stacking effects to consider)

[shao32]

Not really. Both of them have roughly the same effect (10% of your max health as a shield from Divine Fail. 8% (+4% per buff consumed) target max health as a shield from SiO)

Baseline is Veil is stronger. But WAR can improve theirs to compete and be slightly better on the tank.

Either way though, these skills are often not used for their mitigation, but the LB they generate.

excuse me but both shield mitigation are pretty usefull, its creates some extra safety, they are used for the mitigation and for the LB bcs its free mitigation for the party, please don't dismiss the value of free stuff specially if is usefull.

Relevant utility? Such as?

WAR's "Utility" has pretty much only consisted of Holmgang = better cheesing of TB's.

With SB bringing in Shake it Off as an AoE shield after WAR's asked for some utility.
Except unless you address the underlying balance issues which are prevalent across the entire cast of Tanks, you'll end up setting up a scenario where its 2 tanks fighting for 2 spots because the other 2 are considered garbage in comparison to their "Partner".

If you do address the underlying balance issues, to allow for the 2 tanks in a sub-role to compete. Then you may as well just fix the role in its entirety so it becomes a case of "Bring the player, not the job"

Where you won't have "4 Tanks competing for 2 slots" but instead just have Tank players competing for the 2 spots and their preferred job being irrelevant outside of not stacking 2x the same Tank (Though, even that might still actually work, so long as there aren't non-stacking effects to consider)

what are you expecting? i mean not trying to sound rude but when i post this posibility its obviously that involves tank balance with the new skills and old ones to make each couple being equal in they capabilitys, it will take less effort do it in this way vs force every tank doing everything as you suggest to dont get indiscriminated, you can't put current DRK competing against PLD or WAR right now, meaby GUN, its obviously requre balance so no tank is indiscriminated.

i mean you argument works against you too, the most small thing can put ahead a tank over others, if 2 tanks works pretty well the other will cry in a corner except you make every tank do the same and i doubt you want do that, and with you opinions of the devs do you extecptem do it at you way and don't fail? they fail with 3, with 4 bet for it.

WAR's eat a significant penalty to use Defiance. Since it literally locks them out of their passive crit bonus and Fell Cleaves for 10 seconds.

To say nothing about how WAR's don't actually get any defensive benefit from their defensive stance unless they use Equilibrium or Inner Beast.

Also, when the game revolves around Tanks being in DPS stance 99.99% of the time this isn't even a big factor and in this scenario, both PLD and DRK are superior because their active mitigation (Sheltron and TBN) both work in DPS stance.

idk if you know this but WAR penalty in full tank stance its around 25% of damage lose compared to full dps stance uptime, same with DRK same with PLD, war dont loose more, and they can enjoy the defiance status that yes dont bring defense per se, but prevents death with more HP pool, it brings efective HP like grit and shield do, so the skill alone its equaly effective as grit and shield.

Again, this entire situation comes from the balance team not understanding the underlying cause of tank issues. Whereby they kept WAR being unique with its powerful, but stance locked, mitigation. But also tried to bring about homogeny so that WAR's could perma-DPS stance like PLD/DRK.

and you expect then do the balance in you way?

But DRK also gains DPS through getting a shield and thus generating LB.

if it brings a shield that dont offers nothing it brings nothing, except you mean it brings a free TBN.

They are. Since if they were all on equal CD, then PLD would be superior, because it outright prevents damage, meaning healers don't need to heal and can continue focusing on DPS.

If they were all on equal CD, then DRK would still be literally the worst, because the mechanics of Living Dead are complete trash.

Like, Hallowed Grounds longer CD is justified because its effect it just so much more potent, it is also more versatile as it prevents sustained damage from needing to be healed too (While Holm/LD only prevent death).

if you put holmgang at 5 min you won't be able to do more that 2 of then so stays in the line with the other tanks, and living dead need a rework but we are tired of asking for it.

[Kalise]

excuse me but both shield mitigation are pretty usefull, its creates some extra safety, they are used for the mitigation and for the LB bcs its free mitigation for the party, please don't dismiss the value of free stuff specially if is usefull.

You mean like the free healing that everyone will receive because a healer will always be casting an AoE heal since these AoE shields from the tanks aren't going to stop them from needing to cast a heal?

what are you expecting? i mean not trying to sound rude but when i post this posibility its obviously that involves tank balance with the new skills and old ones to make each couple being equal in they capabilitys, it will take less effort do it in this way vs force every tank doing everything as you suggest to dont get indiscriminated, you can't put current DRK competing against PLD or WAR right now, meaby GUN, its obviously requre balance so no tank is indiscriminated.

It's quite simple.

In your situation, you're trying to balance tanks in pairs, so they have equal capabilities. So that things like DPS, mitigation, enmity, utility are all equalized between them. Then you're advocating for each pair to be distinct from each other (In a way that wouldn't then cause people to force "Same sub-role" compositions, like they inevitably would) for some reason.

In my situation, it's just making the baseline things for Tanks, like DPS, mitigation, enmity and utility are all equalized because they're all given a specific core of abilities that let them perform their required role.

I don't want a particular job to be favoured because it arbitrarily has a better defensive CD so is better at cheesing Tankbusters. Nor do I want a particular job to be favoured because it's the only job in the role that has a set of utility skills.

Especially when much of these skills don't actually have any gameplay related to them. Like, when a Tankbuster comes, you press a CD (Or a couple of them). It doesn't matter if its Hallowed Ground, Holmgang, Shadow Wall, Vengeance, Rampart etc. The gameplay is the same. You press an oGCD button and you take the hit and don't die.

So... What's the purpose in creating imbalance by having a bunch of "Unique" CD's? If the gameplay is still the same irregardless, press a button > don't die > continue your rotation as normal.

Like, you mentioned about Vengeance being imbalanced... But honestly, how much is it? A tankbuster comes. A WAR presses Vengeance and a DRK presses Shadow Wall. Both take 30% less damage from this spike of damage. WAR deals an insignificant amount of damage back (If it was a physical attack. Then the rest of the duration no-one cares about because the boss goes back to auto attacks which aren't threatening anyway.

Thematically, Vengeance is cool because of the return damage. In practice, there aren't a lot of situations where it is relevant.

Once you get the core functionality of the role to a point where everyone is on equal footing, so everyone can mitigate TB's equally and everyone can provide something while "OT" (Or more accurately, while not actively tanking).

Then it's merely a matter of tuning numbers. Making sure that DPS remains roughly equal. That Enmity generation remains roughly equal.

After that point, you can do anything you want with the jobs to make them feel unique. So long as they all can perform their duties equally, they'll all be viable no matter what you do with them, much like how DPS are quite varied in playstyle and still can perform their function within an acceptable margin of one another.

i mean you argument works against you too, the most small thing can put ahead a tank over others, if 2 tanks works pretty well the other will cry in a corner except you make every tank do the same and i doubt you want do that, and with you opinions of the devs do you extecptem do it at you way and don't fail? they fail with 3, with 4 bet for it.

Well, it's all down to whether the devs see the issues or not.

When all is said and done, it's pretty simple to create tank equality. The hard part is tuning the numbers for DPS, but they've already done that bit.

They just need to take the step to create proper equality between tanks when performing their role. Rather than taking the option to intentionally create imbalance within the role by forcing "MT" and "OT" designs (Especially when their view of the jobs roles are heavily skewed so they consider PLD a MT and WAR and OT)

idk if you know this but WAR penalty in full tank stance its around 25% of damage lose compared to full dps stance uptime, same with DRK same with PLD, war dont loose more

1) You're the one who mentioned WAR having "Minimal DPS loss" to use Defiance. Which is not the case, even with Unchained, you lose out on a TON of crit chance.

2) WAR loses the 5% bonus damage from Deliverance, 5-10% crit chance from Deliverance and takes the 20% damage down from Defiance.

PLD loses their 75 potency hit on their AA's and takes only a 15% damage down from Shield Oath.

DRK loses 24% damage from Grit (Due to how multiplicative damage modifiers work, thus with Darkside and Grit damage modifiers you end up at 96% of base damage as opposed to 120% of base damage)

WAR loses the most when entering Defiance, not even accounting for the DPS loss that is expending Gauge on Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave. The upside is once per 90 seconds they can use Unchained to remove the damage down from Defiance.

they can enjoy the defiance status that yes dont bring defense per se, but prevents death with more HP pool, it brings efective HP like grit and shield do, so the skill alone its equaly effective as grit and shield.

It only brings EHP if you get healed. If you don't get healed, you have exactly the same EHP as before you entered Defiance. Whereas PLD/DRK both instantly get their 20% damage reduction upon entering their tank stances. No need for them to pop a CD like Equilibrium, or to receive a heal from healers.

and you expect then do the balance in you way?

Expect? No.

Hope? Yes.

if you put holmgang at 5 min you won't be able to do more that 2 of then so stays in the line with the other tanks, and living dead need a rework but we are tired of asking for it.

Except it doesn't work that way.

If Holmgang was at 5 minutes, now everyone will be running DRK because Living Dead is 4 minutes CD so they can use it more frequently.

If all these skills were on 5 minute CD's, then everyone would be running PLD because Hallowed Ground is outright the strongest effect.

That's the issue with these skills, they are inherently unbalanced and people will always end up finding a situation where one of them will be superior, either because of its CD making it more available (Such is the case with Holmgang having 1 minute shorter CD than Living Dead) or because the effect being stronger (Such is the case with Hallowed Ground completely preventing incoming damage with no drawbacks)