Paladin: Designing for One resource, streamlining and a dedicated offtank role @70

[Xenosan]

Its hard for me to imagine new PLD skills because I'd like to see their Oath gauge growth and expenditures changed first..

A lot is the Shield Oath opener, it just sucks: WAR and DRK can handle so much more gracefully.

I am in the minority but I feel maybe pld stances should be oGCD. Would help, would be very powerful, a major feature of the job.. but at this point in game life I think that's not a DOA concept anymore..

and another issue is Intervention: it's too good and too accessible. Intervention taken off the gauge and put on a hard recast. PoA take its place as a gauge skill. Oath cost and generation adjusted as necessary. Or instead of PoA, Bulwark goes on gauge and works similiar to PoA, but without the group defense component

?

[Khalithar]

I mean, isn't that a bit deceitful that... "The wall", the "protector" the freaking heavy armored holy knight with a shield is best as.... the off tank?

Depends on how you like at it. If you look at it purely as the only one fighting the monster and being the only thing between the boss and killing the party then yeah I can see that.

But with it's current support abilities, the pld can act as the wall for the entire group and mitigate damage, protecting EVERYONE in the group, themselves, the back line, the front line, and the other person holding the enemy's attention. It's become a front line support melee at this point, shielding and protecting while dealing decent damage of it's own.

[jameseoakes]

But with it's current support abilities, the pld can act as the wall for the entire group and mitigate damage, protecting EVERYONE in the group, themselves, the back line, the front line, and the other person holding the enemy's attention. It's become a front line support melee at this point, shielding and protecting while dealing decent damage of it's own.

If I wanted that I'd still be healing, I liked playing as I liked facing down the big bads.

[Barraind]

Removal of Savage Blade and Riot blade, will make things too simple.

Its less about simplicity and more about acton bar management.

We know if they add new buttons, theyre going to end up consolidating some or removing some. The best options for removal are the ones that serve as bridge actions.

One just has increased threat, which you can bake into ogcd flash, tank stance gauge spenders and faster halone. One restores MP, which can be baked into the combo finisher which only does damage.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Its less about simplicity and more about acton bar management.

We know if they add new buttons, theyre going to end up consolidating some or removing some. The best options for removal are the ones that serve as bridge actions.

One just has increased threat, which you can bake into ogcd flash, tank stance gauge spenders and faster halone. One restores MP, which can be baked into the combo finisher which only does damage.

So why not they remove all second actions from all combos for every melee job, hell why not remove the starting action to each combo while you're at it, so all we have to do is spam 1 button until we need to press another former combo finisher, because two button combos, just don't feel like actual combos lol

It is so monotonous spamming two button combos at low level it feels incomplete when you play with 2 button combos, honestly the "bridge actions" are fine they don't need to be removed, there is better ways to manage hotbar space than reducing combos down, next we'll have people asking for pvp style combos for pve again xD

[Megguido]

It can fulfill both the MT and OT slots, it just likes OT more due to the loss of damage from shield oath.

As for identity, it is a bit weird, but I don't think we can use that as an argument as the roles shift depending on balance, and PLD can fit in either MT or OT based on the way it is portrayed.

PLD OT or MT isn't about Shield Oath. Paladin MT or OT in Sword Oath most of the time (ShO is mostly used in dungeon or when learning a fight, when they don't really have a choice for aggro generation). They like OT more because of their utility.

Otherwise, PLD isn't that much worse than DRK and WAR as MT (just a bit squishier due to longer CD). What makes them a worse MT is because they "lose" a part of their support abilities while doing. Cover and Intervention are a lot less useful when being MT. Anyway, with current fight design (for savage and extreme fights at least), both tanks are MT and OT throughout the fight due to tank swaps.

[Lambdafish]

I thought people where rating Holmgang better due to it's shorter cool down.

Holmgang's shorter cooldown makes it good for different reasons (you can use it for two mechanics rather than one), but hallowed ground can be used to skip mechanics, which holmgang's can't

[Jandor]

I'd rather not get rid of the intermediate step of the combos.

Would be nice if they could branch freely though.

Fast Blade combos to either Savage or Riot.

Have Savage then go to Rage of Halone, Royal Authority or Goring Blade.

Same deal for Riot.

Maybe lose Rage of Halone altogether? And have Savage give bonus enmity on next action, and Riot give bonus gauge generation?

[Barraind]

So why not they remove all second actions from all combos for every melee job

Thats exactly what I suggest they should do, unless its something like monk, where they have multiple entry actions into multiple secondary actions into multiple tertiary actions.

hell why not remove the starting action to each combo while you're at it, so all we have to do is spam 1 button until we need to press another former combo finisher, because two button combos, just don't feel like actual combos

I'm not against that.

Theres no actual difference between 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 and 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1. You're pressing the next buttons with no thought, any time you press the opener to a combo, you have to follow it all the way through to an end, because they backload potency into the last button pressed (otherwise you wouldnt press it). You arent sometimes pressing something other than 2 when you press 1, because you then cannot press 2. The only time you press something other than 3 after you press 2 is if theres a 4 that also keys off of pressing 2. The only reason 2 exists in a lot of cases is because back in the 1.0 days, they wanted to give people a button that didnt do anything special at lower levels.

The game has moved past that time, and can streamline a lot of button presses so it feels like what you press actually matters. Its why the combo finishers should be moved waaaay up, so youre used to doing things like "keep my storms buff up but use the bigger damage/gauge gainers the rest of the time. If anything, we can move the "only press this every 18/30 seconds" combo finishers off of the combo, since thats the only place you use them.

It is so monotonous spamming two button combos at low level it feels incomplete when you play with 2 button combos,

Yes. It is. Which is why i would recommend moving down enough actions to have meaningful choice by the time you hit your first dungeon, most actions by the time you hit your mid 30's, and the overwhelming majority by the time you hit 8 man and 24 man raids. That way you have more to do than just go 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 for 40 levels. You can get much more comfortable using your other skills much earlier.


The main thing with action economy should be that every button you press should feel like it does something different. Actions shouldnt exist only to enable other buttons to be pressed.