Il Mheg 1/2 of two mirrored zones?

[Iscah]

[The Warp spell has] been the only presented time travel suggestion of the plot of 5.0 to date and founding genisis of Iscah time travel agenda was that it was a time travel spell.

I don't have a "time travel agenda". I have a specific theory that reincorporating the Crystal Tower sidestory into MSQ would be most neatly done using a time-travel plot. My misunderstanding that Warp was a time-travel spell could be called the genesis of it, but even with that knocked away I feel like it could make the most sense. (Biggs making good on his promise is certainly an alternate possibility though.)

I've explained my idea as clearly as I can, not necessarily to convince you but so you would understand my logic and what I was actually picturing - because you seem to think I'm arguing for a much more radical effect on the timeline than I was intending, or believe to be possible within my concept.

It seems my best explanation either can't or simply won't be followed, so I'm not going to try to say it again.

Iscah failed to jump on that bone I threw out for them there.
Time and Dimension travel hand in hand would get you to [the Rejoined] shards.
Requires the concession to Dimension travel from the time travels.

You threw me a bone? How generous of you. Too bad I wasn't looking for bones.

If you want to propose a theory, propose it yourself. Don't just put it there and wait for the other person to notice the "hint" like it's some kind of test for the validity of their argument, when it's actually off on a tangent.

Yes, it would require both time and dimensional travel to visit the Rejoined shards - but there's been absolutely no suggestion that we're going there, and it's not part of any theory that I have, so I'm not trying to find an explanation for how it could happen.

The only suggestions of dimensional travel so far have been between the Source and the First.

(And if you're going to say "aha, gotcha, you admitted to dimensional travel being possible"... I don't think I ever denied it. Just that we can't at this point argue for it definitely over time travel.)



I don't want to have time travel in the game "just because", or wedge it in by any means necessary. It just made sense as a supporting element to an idea.

I still think the trailer has elements better explained by a time shift than a dimensional one, while other things (primarily Minfilia's presence) do point towards travel to the First.

We could get both, or neither, but I don't believe we can write off either possibility with the information we currently have.

That is (perhaps) all I have to say about this. I'm not going to try to explain my logic again. Time will tell whether I guessed right or whether I was way off the mark.

[Iscah]

Reading over the topic again... this discussion wandered so far, and I'm quite sure I went into it with the initial intention that I wasn't going to bring up my theory on G'raha again because I'd already gone over it in other topics and I'm sure people were already tired of hearing about it.

I'd joined the discussion just to point out that time travel is not yet ruled out, because fay2 was seeing certain things as definite proof of dimensional travel, which to me were still entirely ambiguous - particularly whether the voice was Arbert. I had to bring up G'raha when asked who else I thought it could be, and the whole thing snowballed from there as I tried to explain my logic. I honestly thought I'd explained if fully right back in post #38, and wouldn't need to keep sidetracking the conversation over it.



I'll also note that we seem to be using "crossed out" writing in very different ways - mine are intended to be side comments that aren't really part of the discussion, but I'm still making them. fay2 seems to be using it to make "disproved statements" and then cross them out to say they're false.



Also I forgot to reply to this the other day.

Can the writers incorporate more time travel into the plotline? Of course they can. There's nothing stopping them. There's even wiggle room granted by the time travel they've already implemented - while I feel the Alexander storyline seems to support a single-timeline model (even if fay2 would disagree on that point), the fact that Alexander calculated multiple timelines and chose between them indicates that he COULD have picked a different path - something which hints at multiple timelines being possible.

This did get me thinking about how to reconcile the apparent single-timeline model with the possibility that Alexander apparently could have changed time if it wanted to... and I think it would work if you say that Alexander has the ability to change time because that is what was envisaged by the Illuminati when they summoned him - but has concluded that it must not use that ability to do so. (Just like, at a mundane level, there are a lot of things a person might imagine doing and be physically capable of doing, but won't because they know there would be consequences.)

[QT_Melon]

While yes, time travel isn't completely ruled out. The major problem with it being used is that way too often it's a trope or done usually because the writers have run out of ideas for the main story. Shard/inter-dimensional travel still is a bit untapped and teased, and while I get that it shouldn't be done also as an easily constructed plot device where it wears out its welcome and it shouldn't be something that can be easily done. It has been slowly dripped into the story. There's more to the world that can be explored on our realm.

So I understand why there are those that hope neither are the case at this time. I do however, see it being more towards shard travel, but wouldn't be disappointed if it's not. I will freely admit I can't feel the same of it's time, mainly because it's generally used as other storytelling options have been exhausted. That's why however, it being a side story, Alexander worked as a time travel story.

Who knows, it might be a bit of both time and dimensional and people will feel like the Lyse/Yda arguments all over again...

If it's neither...doesn't bother me too much either.

[fay2]

Instead of time travel and Shard Travel being red herrings for each other, both of them could be red herrings for the fact that all the travel we do will be taking place in the same shard in a linear fashion as the MSQ has always done. It's not like there's plenty of places to go on the Source that we've never been to before.

Yes I can understand this, why have dimensional travel at all?

That stems from "the Fae"

Mythology, Folklore and Faerie tales involving the Fae have another "worlds" in heavily woven into the fabric of the stories. Which people are spirited away to, or slip between realms as two commonly used component to their stories.
By other "worlds" not a physical place on the map like say "the new world" where we got blue mage from but a different plane/dimension.

Also I hope they take it as a chance fix the Cú Chulainn issue.
The number of Irish that ive know that stop playing after seeing Cuchulainn is quite high.



It also stems in part from the dev.s mentioning that the coming expiation will help us understand the ascians and their goals little better.

Which is quite lacking in knowledge to be honest. I'd assume most people know

Their primely goal is to rebirth their god Zodiark
Zodiack their goal was "killed" in the sundering that split the source, where reflections of it where divided by ten and three {the 13 shards}
They are the harbingers of chaos {this chaos helps the rebirth}
The only way to "kill" them is to unmake them.
They sow the seeds of calamities as this calamities rejoin the reflected shards to the source, the shard is gone and the source is changed.


If we're facing twin calamity and we'll understand the Ascians better by the end of 5.0.

It stands to reason that we need to understand the bigger picture of the realm which to date is very limited on the plains of existence , those shards are important part to the realm as a hole.

The story has remained rather aloof about the calamities effects on those shards. We all have assumed knowledge from the titbits the MSQ has dished like everyone dies on a shard as its rammed back into the source. Traveling to one that's verge of calamity and understanding what is really at stake makes for a eye opening story.

While yes, time travel isn't completely ruled out. The major problem with it being used is that way too often it's a trope or done usually because the writers have run out of ideas for the main story. Shard/inter-dimensional travel still is a bit untapped and teased, and while I get that it shouldn't be done also as an easily constructed plot device where it wears out its welcome and it shouldn't be something that can be easily done. It has been slowly dripped into the story. There's more to the world that can be explored on our realm.

So I understand why there are those that hope neither are the case at this time. I do however, see it being more towards shard travel, but wouldn't be disappointed if it's not. I will freely admit I can't feel the same of it's time, mainly because it's generally used as other storytelling options have been exhausted. That's why however, it being a side story, Alexander worked as a time travel story.

Yes this is why I see time travel as something that will come into play at the 13th calamity.

There are tones of things that need to be dealt with and fleshed out in the realm world. There are 3 major land masses we have yet to go to on the source, or the end of this coming expansion things like Limsa's privateers if the southern sea board edge of Othard's coast is liberated might have to come to a head. As what targets do they have that they can still pirate? or for that matter what do the ships they pirate look like? To date the only craft we've seem and can call Garlean and air based {outside of the little boat in the ruby sea but that was more likely the red kojin's}. We have learned they those air based ones have a "limited" range, so maybe they have an exploration of Meracydia underway and still need sea vessels in the southern oceans.

but it all boils down to the not half assing the Fae for me.

[ObsidianFire]

Yes I can understand this, why have dimensional travel at all?

That stems from "the Fae"

Mythology, Folklore and Faerie tales involving the Fae have another "worlds" in heavily woven into the fabric of the stories. Which people are spirited away to, or slip between realms as two commonly used component to their stories.
By other "worlds" not a physical place on the map like say "the new world" where we got blue mage from but a different plane/dimension.

Also I hope they take it as a chance fix the Cú Chulainn issue.
The number of Irish that ive know that stop playing after seeing Cuchulainn is quite high.

We already know the Fae are going to be a beast tribe. There is nothing to indicate that they won't be anything other then what the rest of the beast tribes are. IE: a race of sentient beings that are not the player races.

Final Fantasy in general takes from the mythology of many, many cultures in broad strokes and puts its own spin on them. Shiva is always female and never male (and where did associating her with ice come from?). Odin has a katana with a Japanese name instead of a spear. Quezacotl is a lighting bird instead of a feathered snake. The list goes on. Assuming anything in Final Fantasy is in any way similar to what it is named after in real world mythology will leave you disappointed every time.

It stands to reason that we need to understand the bigger picture of the realm which to date is very limited on the plains of existence , those shards are important part to the realm as a hole.

The story has remained rather aloof about the calamities effects on those shards. We all have assumed knowledge from the titbits the MSQ has dished like everyone dies on a shard as its rammed back into the source. Traveling to one that's verge of calamity and understanding what is really at stake makes for a eye opening story.

We actually know a lot more then you are making it out to be. Besides, what goes on on the other Shards doesn't really matter compared to what goes on on the Source. In an ideal world, the Shards would never have been created in the first place, or barring that, the Shards would never know that the other Shards exist. That we know they exist at all is a sign of how broken the current world has become. It's enough for the story to know that every time a Calamity happens, the aether that consists of a Shard is Rejoined to the Source. We don't really need to know more then that to know that is something that shouldn't be happening.

Hydaelyn seems to be about preserving individuality by the means of maintaining barriers between different things. This would be everything from the barriers between people's souls (bodies) to the barriers that keep the Shards distinct from each other. The Ascians (and probably Zodiark) are mainly about forcing everything to become one thing by pulling down those barriers. Which results in the loss of any given thing's individuality. Whether that be an individual's individuality or an entire dimention's doesn't really matter to them.

There are tones of things that need to be dealt with and fleshed out in the realm world. There are 3 major land masses we have yet to go to on the source, or the end of this coming expansion things like Limsa's privateers if the southern sea board edge of Othard's coast is liberated might have to come to a head. As what targets do they have that they can still pirate? or for that matter what do the ships they pirate look like? To date the only craft we've seem and can call Garlean and air based {outside of the little boat in the ruby sea but that was more likely the red kojin's}. We have learned they those air based ones have a "limited" range, so maybe they have an exploration of Meracydia underway and still need sea vessels in the southern oceans.

Ironically, everything in this paragraph lists very good reasons that dimensional travel or time travel will not happen. Why go anywhere new when there's still so much stuff in our current location to explore? As it is, there are answers to these question either in the game or in other supplemental material, particularly the lore books.

Ilsabard seems to be based off of Europe and the northern part of Asia, specifically Russia. The New World has lots of early American influences and we also know that the Mamol Ja and Hyur live there. Mercydia sounds a lot like Australia. If the Warring Traid are anything to go by, then we'll probably find Hyur, Elezen, Roegadyn, dragons and some sort of sentient plant race there.

Lima's privateers are probably the best navy in the known world. Yes, even better then the Garleans. The Garleans don't put a priority on sea control and as of the end of 4.4, their airship presence has greatly diminished in Othard. While they do have a navy, it mainly stays close to the Othardian/Ilsabardian coast which leaves the deep sea route from Aldenard to Hingashi wide open for Eorzea to make use of. If Carvalian's ship is anything to go by, Limsa's privateers are making use of Garlean ceruleum engines (and maybe other tech) to have an even easier time fighting against the Garleans. It's worth mentioning that Garlemald doesn't sound like it has a huge coastline while it does have a large land presence, while Limsa is basically a floating nation. The Limsans have depended on the seas for their entire nation's history, while the Garleans have probably never had to bother with it. From the Garlean's perspective, they have a lot of catch-up work to do to figure out how sea warfare works.

We also know from Koji and Oda that the Garleans are only interested in conquering the three great continents. So long as the island nations don't cause them problems, they are more then happy to leave them alone. Which would be why Hingashi and Thavanir actually can get non-aggression pacts with Garlemald. Garlemald wasn't even interested in conquering them in the first place.

but it all boils down to the not half assing the Fae for me.

If that's what you are hoping for, I predict that you will be very disappointed. Given our present knowledge, they seem to be little more then a slyph reskin down to potentially not having a malevolent primal. I will be pleasantly surprised if they turn out to be more then that, but I don't really have my hopes up.

The main reason I'm against any kind of dimensional travel happening is that the requirements for all dimensional travel that has taken place has been very, very strict and specific. The only character on our side who could dimension travel so long as the current requirements do not change is us. No on else qualifies (and it would involve us dying and possessing a different body to boot). Given that the trailer and art of the next expansion make it seem like the rest of the Scions are very involved in what is going on, I don't think it's very likely that we will be going to a place where they currently can not follow us to.

[fay2]

We already know the Fae are going to be a beast tribe. There is nothing to indicate that they won't be anything other then what the rest of the beast tribes are. IE: a race of sentient beings that are not the player races.

1st up in FFXIV "The Fae" is not a beast tribe. It is a language like "Dragonspeak"

You've confused the Fae with the Pixies

If "The Fae" is like "Dragonspeak" as was mentioned at the Fanfest, then the coming expansion's MSQ plot will revolve heavily around it's speakers like HW did for dragons.

Final Fantasy in general takes from the mythology of many, many cultures in broad strokes and puts its own spin on them. Shiva is always female and never male (and where did associating her with ice come from?). Odin has a katana with a Japanese name instead of a spear. Quezacotl is a lighting bird instead of a feathered snake. The list goes on. Assuming anything in Final Fantasy is in any way similar to what it is named after in real world mythology will leave you disappointed every time.

Yes I am aware of this. I'm not them. They still take issue with CúChulainn just being a poison filled bile spewing tentacle monster.
I can understand the issue they have with it would however be like they had named it maybe Jeanne d'Arc or Maui.

We actually know a lot more then you are making it out to be. Besides, what goes on on the other Shards doesn't really matter compared to what goes on on the Source. In an ideal world, the Shards would never have been created in the first place,

From the Ascian point of veiw yes and Ideal world makes for a poor story.

Ironically, everything in this paragraph lists very good reasons that dimensional travel or time travel will not happen.

Yes because I don't think the hole expanstion will happen off the source.
I think we'll get 2 that are off the sources' plain dimention that means there will be more story on the source.

The main reason I'm against any kind of dimensional travel happening is that the requirements for all dimensional travel that has taken place has been very, very strict and specific. The only character on our side who could dimension travel so long as the current requirements do not change is us. No on else qualifies (and it would involve us dying and possessing a different body to boot). Given that the trailer and art of the next expansion make it seem like the rest of the Scions are very involved in what is going on, I don't think it's very likely that we will be going to a place where they currently can not follow us to.

Ignoring G'raha and Nero journey to the 13th.

Yes, I have thinking about that for a long time.

the main thought that has come to mind is

This is the 1st time the scions have been exposed to this "place".
Maybe Midealyn has gifted them before she left for the 1st?
Similarly as we when there for the 1st time.

That only leaves Y'shtola out of the picture, but then she was adrift in the lift stream for quite a while maybe Midealyn gifted her then would help explain how she stayed herself there.

[fay2]

I'm of the opinion thanks to this thread that we have already been to the 1st shard
and they slipped it under our noses.

So a quick refresher


There is a nullifying light removing all colour and life

Now to look at a zone in the 24 person raid "The Orbonne Monastery"


Seems like all the light there has bleeched the colour out of most everything on the ground and dosen't seem to have anything living here too.


This is very different from the start of the raid
A reminder of that too


We get to the two different zones by?

An Arcane circle that turns out to be a Gate between the two.


Fran even states after going through the gate.
"Something here feels different than the monastery above... Otherworldly..."


the light effect is feels very similar in the radiance to Il Mheg


The washed out / pastel colours of the zone of Il Mheg make it feel like this nullifying light is at work there but yet to make as heavier impact as "The Orbonne Monastery" area has had.

For a counter reference the World of Darkness


If true,

It makes all the 24 person raids to date have dimensional travel weaved into their plots.

Crystal Tower- the tower has a gate to the 13th shard and we travel too the World of Darkness on it.

Void Arc- Revolves around voidsent. the Arc itself was made to travel to the void to avoid the 6th calamity. Diabolos uses it and opens a rift to escapes to the Void with Scathach's coffin.

Return to Ivalice- We unknowing stumble onto the 1st shard where Ultima, the high seraphim is "imprisoned".
Not that it means much Ultima is able to do like Midgardsormr and open rifts where ever it wants while remaining "imprisoned"/"asleep".

[Masha_Awandah]

Personally, I have a feeling Mullonde might be on our plane, rather than on the 1st shard. The spell back in FFT teleported the party to an existing area within the game, which is the same thing that happened here. If it is the 1st, then that would mean that there are *two* Mullonde, one on each world. Or that our world's Mullonde was transported to the 1st the first time Ultima appeared. That seems unlikely to me.

On the other hand, the bright light does give it an otherworldy aura. This might be a preview of the Flood of Light that's been hinted at in the last few MSQ, and perhaps even a hint that Ultima is close in nature to it. Or something along those lines.

[Cilia]

The World of Darkness is our only confirmed instance of dimensional travel so far. While it factors into the Shadow of Mhach plot, it's never used during the story. Whatever's going on at the Orbonne Monastery is unclear - while I was of the mind that it was indeed travel to the First Shard when shown in the trailer, in-game it was cleared up and doesn't appear to be anything more than an aether-bleached area of the monastery in question. Assuming what happened there was dimensional travel leaves out some very key elements - it took a lot of energy to get to the Void, and from what we've been told traveling the Aetherial Sea to reach another Shard requires sacrificing one's physical form.

What is Il Mheg? What's with the light? Couldn't say yet. There's just too many unanswered questions up in the air that need to be resolved in 4.56...

Finally got Okita, and damn! Stick "Talk on the Hot Sands" on that baby along with "Fragments of 2030" on the other two and watch her crit everything to death! And I only had to acquire no less than 5 (!) copies of "GUDAGUDA Poster Girl" and get spooked by Ozymandias (yay!), Mordred, Beowulf, Astolfo, and Cas Gil to get her (the last of which I accidentally fed to her...)!

... now, there is nothing I want until the Christmas banner except for the GSSR. Nothing. Nothing. (I tell myself. F/GO is really damn stingy.)

[UniKoRn]

I've just got myself up to date with MSQ, got my tin foil hat on and am ready to theorize with everyone!

The ideas presented in this thread have been pretty interesting but I needed to draw myself a diagram to wrap my head around it all. I've included both fact we know from the game in combination with theories here in this thread.



So my line of thinking is that the shard worlds are like parallel dimensions. When the expansion gives us the ability to travel to another server, it will be like traveling to one of those parallel dimensions/another shard.

If the power of Zodiark was split across all these shards, were there other beings that were split too?

Is the reason people die when the shards rejoin the source because 2 of the same person cannot exist in the same place? Does our parallel self simply merge with us?

Is this why the scions bodies remain in the source world but their consciousness is elsewhere? Perhaps even in the body of their alternate dimension self?