It makes zero sense for the PLD class to have three different skills for AoE

[347SPECTRE]

Unless there was some sort of new expansion that would reshuffle skills and DPS outputs based on new skills and the like that could increase this functionality without it impacting overall DPS output.

Hmmm... If only there was such a thing coming out soon...

No, better just cry some more about WAR's.

*Double post because mobile*

You always seem to come off as being personally attacked when someone mentions WAR needing to be reigned in a bit. I do play WAR and enjoy the heck out of it, but I will agree it does need some reigning in of its skillset.

[Kalise]

You always seem to come off as being personally attacked when someone mentions WAR needing to be reigned in a bit. I do play WAR and enjoy the heck out of it, but I will agree it does need some reigning in of its skillset.

I also agree that WAR is in need of some reigning in of its skillset.

Most notably, Inner Release in its current incarnation is way too ridiculous in how powerful it is due to condensing 40% of WAR's overall damage output into a 10s window per 90 seconds. Which also has the side effect of making the rest of WAR's damaging kit feel crap in comparison.

As well as other parts of their kit such as how Holmgang interacts with raid designs (Though, part of this can be mitigated via not pushing the majority of dangerous damage from raid bosses into Tankbusters that are spaced out so sparsely)

However, when people critique literally every part of WAR's kit and try and push out any attempts to ask for changes to make the class more interesting to play (Independently of numerical balance changes) because of the sole reason of "WAR is OVERPOWERED!!!!!11!!1!!" then it's just asinine.

Yes, WAR can be considered overtuned in some aspects, some of which have persisted for a long time. But people seem to be so aggressively anti-WAR that they don't seem to accept anything that isn't "NERF WAR UNTIL THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY GARBAGE. DELETE THEM FROM THE GAME!!!! NERF NERF NERF!"

To say nothing about the fact that half the time, the problem isn't even with WAR being too strong in a specific area they complain about, but rather a specific tank they like being weak in said area (I.e. PLD is the only Tank that has crap snap enmity, but these anti-WAR haters claim that WAR is far and above all other Tanks when DRK also has good snap enmity. PLD is the only Tank that hasn't got any mobility but again WAR is the supreme ultra-mobile mega-gosu Tank despite DRK also having mobility (Albeit a little bit more awkward because their mobility skill is also a DPS gain to spam on CD) etc.)

This alone wouldn't be a problem, if they kept to themselves. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However these people see WAR in a post and IMMEDIATELY start crying about how OP OP OP OP WAR is and start derailing a thread in order to discuss how they believe WAR is so OP that the game should be called Final Warrior: A Warrior Reborn, HeavensWarrior, StormWarrior, WarriorBringers because they're the best class in the entire game.

Dev's show they concerns about tank dps, so you can't take this seriously, what are you asking is have more sustained resource generation thats ok but you have to be aware for a job so heavily build on burst windows will have to get potency reduction for some if not all his aoe skills to compensate that in 5.0, i don't consider WAR/tanks in general need more aoe damage at all since everything dies to quick already, only PLD as much need some extra dps to be more equal to the rest.

Once again, I never posted that I wished for WAR's to have more DPS. At all. Ever.

I merely asked for a more fluid rotation. DRK's get to generate and use their gauge in AoE situations. PLD's get to generate and use their gauge in AoE situations (Though, it's less impactful due to the way Sheltron vs multiple incoming attacks works, however, I wouldn't mind seeing them get another Gauge spender that would work better in AoE). WAR's have to choose between AoE or Gauge generation.

Like, WAR's literally have 2 AoE gauge spenders, but outside of Inner Release, they're not particularly usable, because it's simply better damage and enmity to spam Overpower instead of ST building gauge. Maybe you have an Infuriate to use too... But even then, it's often not worth it to give up on the 5% Crit/Parry you'd have from having a full gauge to use a single AoE spender.

Of course, suggestions I make such as these, take into account that 5.0 suggests to be a significant overhaul of all classes, due to how TP removal will effect things, to say nothing about being tuned for new level 70-80 skills or reworks to existing skills.

Since, at the end of the day, I don't want any class to be OP. I don't play WAR because it's "OP", I play it because back when I made my character in 2.0, WAR is the job that caught my interest. Even though back in 2.0 WAR was garbage balance wise. I want it to continue to be a job that keeps my interest and frankly, SB has been a huge blow to that because they removed a lot of interesting aspects of the job as well as creating the current incarnation of Inner Release, which I hate with a passion.

I honestly think that Inner Release is the biggest mistake made with the WAR job. Since not only is the current iteration just plain not fun because it's just a matter of "Press it then spam Fell Cleave" because it completely takes resources out of the equation (To say nothing on how it nullifies Direct Hit as a stat too) but also it causes balance concerns such as the ones that crop up in threads like these where because it contributes so much of WAR's overall damage and condenses it into such a small timeframe that it gets additional advantages when so many fight designs revolve around burst windows.

[shao32]

Once again, I never posted that I wished for WAR's to have more DPS. At all. Ever.

I merely asked for a more fluid rotation. DRK's get to generate and use their gauge in AoE situations. PLD's get to generate and use their gauge in AoE situations (Though, it's less impactful due to the way Sheltron vs multiple incoming attacks works, however, I wouldn't mind seeing them get another Gauge spender that would work better in AoE). WAR's have to choose between AoE or Gauge generation.

you sugestion was generate more gauge with aoes, aka overpower, to fuel more decimates/steel and don't rely on single target combos in case you need it to gain more gauge.
this cause you get more resources to use more decimates and since decimate/steel have way more potency that overpower (130 vs 200/280) WAR will generate way more dps bcs of that since you will increase the amount tof decimates aviable per encounter outside of inner release.

you didn't ask for a dps increase directly, what you don't notice you ask for a big dps increase indirectly even if ins't was you intention since you didn't add WAR will need potencty ajustment to acomodate you request and don't skyrocket his already big ungabunga dps and that's why some take it like a overpowered sugestion coming from no where, nothing more.

[Kalise]

you sugestion was generate more gauge with aoes, aka overpower, to fuel more decimates/steel and don't rely on single target combos in case you need it to gain more gauge.
this cause you get more resources to use more decimates and since decimate/steel have way more potency that overpower (130 vs 200/280) WAR will generate way more dps bcs of that since you will increase the amount tof decimates aviable per encounter outside of inner release.

I said generate gauge with AN AoE skill. Not necessarily Overpower. Said AoE skill with gauge increase need not be as potent as Overpower. It need not be Overpower itself either.

since you didn't add WAR will need potencty ajustment to acomodate you request and don't skyrocket his already big ungabunga dps and that's why some take it like a overpowered sugestion coming from no where, nothing more.

That was implied, because unlike some people, I'm not an idiot who thinks that anything that is given to a class it literally just going to be slapped on to the class as is with no adjustments at all.

Anyone with half a brain could have thought that maybe, instead of asking WAR to get massive AoE DPS output, that maybe, I kind of wanted Overpower to be tuned down in order to push some of the AoE DPS outside of Inner Release towards the Gauge spenders?

Since, why the hell would I want to make an overpowered suggestion?

I've never done so anywhere else on these forums, nor did I advocate any such massively ovepowering suggestions within that original post in regards to PLD. So what, other than your incredible bias against WAR lead you to believe I was asking for a straight up huge buff to WAR AoE DPS?

Honestly, I've been putting in feedback for various jobs for the past few months and literally, every single one of them has me trying to suggest gameplay improvements that don't directly translate into outright massive buffs to said jobs. Yet, the second I mention anything about WAR, suddenly both you any Lyth jump on me and accuse me of trying to merely add a bunch of crap onto current WAR. Even despite me stating, on multiple occasions, that I fully expect WAR to be rebalanced in 5.0 and hopefully done in a way that tones down the areas where they overperform. Just like I hope that PLD and DRK get rebalanced to get boosts to the areas where they underperform and toned down in areas they overperform.

I don't care much about if WAR is the strongest tank or weakest tank in the game. So long as it can do the content and its fun to play (Which has always been how I've viewed "Metas" and has lead me to main tank in other games as a raid leader on classes that have been considered "Garbage" tier and I've always done fine because playing a class you like > playing a "Meta" class you don't). As such, there's no reason for me to suggest unnecessary buffs trying to overpower the job.

[shao32]

I said generate gauge with AN AoE skill. Not necessarily Overpower. Said AoE skill with gauge increase need not be as potent as Overpower. It need not be Overpower itself either.



That was implied, because unlike some people, I'm not an idiot who thinks that anything that is given to a class it literally just going to be slapped on to the class as is with no adjustments at all.

Anyone with half a brain could have thought that maybe, instead of asking WAR to get massive AoE DPS output, that maybe, I kind of wanted Overpower to be tuned down in order to push some of the AoE DPS outside of Inner Release towards the Gauge spenders?

Since, why the hell would I want to make an overpowered suggestion?

I've never done so anywhere else on these forums, nor did I advocate any such massively ovepowering suggestions within that original post in regards to PLD. So what, other than your incredible bias against WAR lead you to believe I was asking for a straight up huge buff to WAR AoE DPS?

Honestly, I've been putting in feedback for various jobs for the past few months and literally, every single one of them has me trying to suggest gameplay improvements that don't directly translate into outright massive buffs to said jobs. Yet, the second I mention anything about WAR, suddenly both you any Lyth jump on me and accuse me of trying to merely add a bunch of crap onto current WAR. Even despite me stating, on multiple occasions, that I fully expect WAR to be rebalanced in 5.0 and hopefully done in a way that tones down the areas where they overperform. Just like I hope that PLD and DRK get rebalanced to get boosts to the areas where they underperform and toned down in areas they overperform.

well i saw many crazy stuff become reality on WAR during this expansion i don't expect less.

so for being clear i just adding feedback to you suggestion, by desing you can't give WAR better gauge generation to aoes and you suggestion imply a nerf on the potency of certain skills, i just say overpower bcs its the only skill WAR have that don't cost gauge except you expect get a new one this expansion, everything is posible, but again it will imply big potency down to decimate and steel cyclone to add that and i hope you are aware about that, sustain comes at the cost of burst.

despite about WAR current status coments was since you stated DRK have the best dps aoe, and thats not correct, DRK is the best on aoe for desing and gameplay, numbers are another thing, i don't thing anyone want to come again with a endless discusion about current tank status specially since looks like we all want the same and we know we are not agree on some things no matter what.

[Kalise]

sustain comes at the cost of burst.

Well, clearly this is something I'm willing to take, given that I don't want Inner Release to exist in its current state, which is literally the driving force behind WAR's burst, without IR WAR's burst is nothing spectacular.

Even with Berserk, WAR's burst was limited. Since, at best, you could toss out 3 Fell Cleaves with a full gauge and Infuriate.

Inner Release is just a terribly designed skill. Like, yes, I think WAR should err towards burst damage as a theme but no, I don't think condensing 40% of their total damage output to 10s windows of spamming 1 skill is a particularly good way of doing it.

despite about WAR current status coments was since you stated DRK have the best dps aoe, and thats not correct, DRK is the best on aoe for desing and gameplay, numbers are another thing

WAR has best AoE DPS only when IR is up. Without it, DRK is by far the best AoE DPS due to Salted Earth and Abyssal Drain + Quietus spam even more so when without Grit so can use Blood Weapon and get the full benefit from Darkside.

Unless you're think about when leveling up, in which case, yes, while leveling up WAR is far and away the best AoE Tank in the game and it's not even close. Due to PLD and DRK not getting their spam AoE skills with comparable damage to Overpower until much later (50 for PLD getting Eclipse + Circle and 64 for DRK getting Quietus, Abyssal and Salted)

i don't thing anyone want to come again with a endless discusion about current tank status specially since looks like we all want the same and we know we are not agree on some things no matter what.

Then why are you and Lyth so quick to jump onto anyone that suggests anything about WAR?

This is supposed to be a thread about PLD and I make a small aside about wishing for a more interesting AoE rotation for WAR given the topic is about AoE and making changes to PLD's AoE rotation and skill availability and all of a sudden out of nowhere there's people making like 1-1.5 pages of comments about how OP WAR is so they can't have any actually fun skills.

Same as in that other thread which was supposed be about Gunbreaker, but then someone mentioned WAR and then it was like 5-10 pages of "WAR is OP" crying...

Like, I'm almost getting to the point of hoping 5.0 craps on DRK's just to spite you two, even against my own wish that DRK becomes actually really awesome and fun and useful. Just because it's INSANE that it's literally not possible to mention "The Job That Must Not Be Named" without you two coming with your tirade about how WAR is so OP they're not allowed anything.

I just want my class to be fun. I don't want it to be OP, I just want it to be fun. So I would like to be able suggest ideas that could increase the fun of the class without having to deal with the WAR Police whom have a personal vendetta against WAR so that they cannot tolerate the existence of any kind of talking about WAR unless it's a cry for nerfs.

Anyway, trying to get something on topic and somewhat relevant to the thread:

With the consolidation of the resources and all that jazz, in addition to my previous mention of possibly giving PLD a Gauge spender that's useful in AoE...

What if they ended up making Total Eclipse their spam AoE ability and then altered Flash to function as a Gauge spender for AoE situations?

So, you'd Sheltron vs Single Targets and Flash vs Multiple. As opposed to now where you either throw out a mediocre Sheltron or just sit on full gauge because there's little worth in blocking 20% of one of the like 10+ attacks coming in per second...

[Jandor]

This alone wouldn't be a problem, if they kept to themselves. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However these people see WAR in a post and IMMEDIATELY start crying about how OP OP OP OP WAR is and start derailing a thread in order to discuss how they believe WAR is so OP that the game should be called Final Warrior: A Warrior Reborn, HeavensWarrior, StormWarrior, WarriorBringers because they're the best class in the entire game.

Meh, Warriors have to take some of the blame for this to be honest.

Not you personally mind, but in general a decent chunk of WAR players have been incredibly obnoxious about their top spot. Busting in to threads about the other tanks, or even other jobs in general, to spam the place up with 'Blue DPS' 'Man mode' & 'Put on your big boy subligar and grab an axe' type rubbish.

I mean, you're not spamming tired half a decade old memes or anything, but you did come in to a thread about Paladin AoE and then end your post talking about Warrior AoE and how Warrior AoE could use some changes to make Warrior play better, and now half the posts in here are about Warrior and you're complaining about how other people derail conversations about your job

[Phoenicia]

Meh, Warriors have to take some of the blame for this to be honest.

Not you personally mind, but in general a decent chunk of WAR players have been incredibly obnoxious about their top spot. Busting in to threads about the other tanks, or even other jobs in general, to spam the place up with 'Blue DPS' 'Man mode' & 'Put on your big boy subligar and grab an axe' type rubbish.

I mean, you're not spamming tired half a decade old memes or anything, but you did come in to a thread about Paladin AoE and then end your post talking about Warrior AoE and how Warrior AoE could use some changes to make Warrior play better, and now half the posts in here are about Warrior and you're complaining about how other people derail conversations about your job

It isn't really the warrior players' fault that they picked the job that was actually designed better than its competitors. It also isn't their fault that a clear favoritism on the side of the dev-team exists.

Took all 2 years of complaining for HW PLD to become the beast it is in Stormblood. Took SE less than a patch of complaining about WAR to be COMPLETELY REWORKED, TWICE!! (2.1 and 4.1). But I think it has to do with the attitude of the tanks and how they "complain".

Yes, attitude matters a lot. While warriors have a lot going on for them and their toolkit leaves little to complain about tbh despite there is still some to be desired. There is always something to be improved on after all. Specially in areas that make the job fun to play instead of 10 seconds of fun and 80 of sleeping. But what ends up really happening is warriors either give actual feedback, or just come in to boast how big their... axes are.

On the other hand, you find the other two jobs' complaints are always about what the other jobs have and they don't, completely ignoring what they have on themselves. PLDs cry about no dashing regardless of completely nullifying knockback and the ability to share that with someone else as well via cover. Heck, even DRK managed to complain about WAR's "mobility". Instead of, you know, being mature about discussing the job's actual problems.

Don't get me wrong, the good threads do happen, and a lot of PLD's and DRK's issues are legit. A lot of Lyth's threads about DRK's design are VERY good (you can see them around here on the tank forums). This thread discussing PLD's AoE is another example. But these are, sadly, the minority among the sea of "why do they have it and I don't" cesspool. Maybe that's why WAR gets buffed so quickly while PLD and DRK complaints get ignored. It is very hard to take "give us what they have" seriously because it only looks like jealousy. Just go to the DPS forums and see how well received BLM's requests for Raise are.

As for Kalise, he/she has a point, this is about AoE skills and resource consolidation, it reminded them of WAR and DRK's AoE, and as such, stated what they wish to happen for the other jobs to have their AoE be more fun. Kalise had no intention of hijacking a PLD thread to discuss how OP WAR is. It's other people that did. Just like how I mentioned that stance dancing wasn't something to build on in a game that disfavors stances in the Gunbreaker thread and hell broke loose about how WAR is so OP it doesn't need its tank stance locked ability Inner Beast (which was relegated to "useless status" due to the stance that it is locked behind is "useless") that made a 5 page thread into 25.

I have nothing against their opinions either. If they think a job is OP or UP and have good data to back it up that isn't "I feel it is so" it is fine. And if they do not have said data, then we'll just agree to disagree. I'm not gonna hate them for it. And to be fair, WAR, by design, is at fault of being borderline OP. This is even more exacerbated by the job's popularity, both, for the "meta", the amount of players that enjoy playing it whither for thematic reasons, playstyle or just FotM chasing. When you have twice as many WAR as the other 2 jobs combined, you are bound to find these EXTREMELY good players discovering the shenanigans it can pull off as opposed to certain underplayed jobs *cough*DRK*cough*. But again, this isn't about tank Balance. This is just stating how silly this anti-WAR bias that started in 3.0 is getting at.

[Jandor]

It isn't really the warrior players' fault that they picked the job that was actually designed better than its competitors. It also isn't their fault that a clear favoritism on the side of the dev-team exists.

Took all 2 years of complaining for HW PLD to become the beast it is in Stormblood. Took SE less than a patch of complaining about WAR to be COMPLETELY REWORKED, TWICE!! (2.1 and 4.1). But I think it has to do with the attitude of the tanks and how they "complain".

Loudly and constantly? lol.

On the other hand, you find the other two jobs' complaints are always about what the other jobs have and they don't, completely ignoring what they have on themselves. PLDs cry about no dashing regardless of completely nullifying knockback and the ability to share that with someone else as well via cover. Heck, even DRK managed to complain about WAR's "mobility". Instead of, you know, being mature about discussing the job's actual problems.

<snip>

But these are, sadly, the minority among the sea of "why do they have it and I don't" cesspool. Maybe that's why WAR gets buffed so quickly while PLD and DRK complaints get ignored. It is very hard to take "give us what they have" seriously because it only looks like jealousy.

Dark Knights didn't really complain about the lack of knockback immunity until Warrior got it, before that it was seen as a 'Paladin thing'.

Paladins didn't really complain about lack of gap closer until Warrior got one. Before that having a gap closer was seen as a 'Dark Knight thing'.

Dark Knight didn't really complain about the lack of party shield until, again, Warrior got given one. Before that the party shield was a 'Paladin thing'.

Paladin and Dark Knight had their own unique tools, and Warrior got given versions of those tools, of course it's going to result in complaints about us non-WARs not getting the same access.

It might ease up a bit when Gunbreaker comes out, but right now with three tanks, when just one has something then it's a cool thing that fleshes out their identity, when two have something then the majority of tanks have it and it's seen as a 'tank thing' that their job lacks, and it's always the same job tipping the balance.

<snip>

But again, this isn't about tank Balance. This is just stating how silly this anti-WAR bias that started in 3.0 is getting at.

Eh, I was being a bit tongue in cheek, I don't really have a problem with them bringing up Warrior AoE.