Love for the female characters

[Lersayil]

snip

To be fair, how many impactful male deaths did we have? I am hard pressed to recall anyone other than Haurchefant.

Also:

Not any one guy's death was reduced longterm to someone else's pain

Yeah, because most of them we forget as soon as we start the next quest. Not sure which is a worse fate.

[BillyKaplan]

To be fair, how many impactful male deaths did we have? I am hard pressed to recall anyone other than Haurchefant.

Meffrid. Conrad. Papalymo.
Now I will partially take back my earlier statement because Papalymo did fuel Lyse's grief at least in the letter she writes him which is used to narrate the main part of SB's MSQ. But we get hardly any of it in actual game dialog.

because most of them we forget as soon as we start the next quest. Not sure which is a worse fate.

They're both symptoms of the same problem, where characters are killed for often what feels like cheap shock value and rushed plot at the expense of future potential. The rest is of how much more prominent "women in refrigerators" is compared to the alternative.

[jameseoakes]

Meffrid. Conrad. Papalymo.

Wait Meffrid had any impact?

[Lersayil]

Wait Meffrid had any impact?

Wait, ANY of them had impact?

I kid you not, I actually had to google who Meffrid was (case in point i guess). Papalymo is unceremoniously killed off to buy us a few levels of time, and then promptly forgotten, only to be brought up for roughly one sentence every blue moon. Also his death was not the catalyst for Yda's transformation, more like an obstacle that had to be removed in order to get... Lyse. We lost two scions that day.

Conrad was flagged for death from the moment he appeared in the story, and was only there as a placeholder so Lyse can promptly take his place.

But yes, BillyKaplan is right in that its just cheap writing. My point was more around the lines, that female characters get usually better even at their worst.

[Vahlnir]

-snip-

Don't think I could have summed up my own feelings better. Well said. Extremely well said.

[Jaywalker]

-----

Really agree with you on most of this, have only one spot I mainly disagree and one thing your post reminded me of!

The disagreement is that I don't have a problem with Minfilia's outfit being impractically fanservice-y per se, particularly in a game like final fantasy where rule of pretty/exciting is a force that hits most characters indiscriminately. You could theoretically wield a sword twice your height thicker than your entire torso for no reason but because it looks cool lol. I'm willing to cut a lot of slack here for aesthetics.

My issue with Minfilia's clothing design is that it doesn't stand out in any interesting way imo. I know people have varying opinions on Lyse but personally I found her take on the blonde hair/blue eyes/ponytail/bellyshirt much more visually interesting and tonally strong compared to Minfilia. Plus, like you said, she's a monk so makes a bit of sense with movement at least.

Nothing in Minfilia's design suggests that she leads the scions. Nothing presents her as an authority or even really says much about her. She doesn't particularly stand out at all. There's no real tone besides "pure, good-looking, girly", which... feels kind of vague and underwhelming for the leader of the Scions. Seems like a missed opportunity.

The other thing though? That scene where Elidibus approaches Minfilia trying to talk peacefully bothered me so much because of how next level bad Minfilia was at handling that. That could have been an insane opportunity to negotiate, learn wtf the Ascians are doing, and potentially head off a ton of the later Ascian-caused disasters. Elidibus at that point hadn't directly done anything heinous to the player's knowledge and kept stating over and over he wasn't there to fight. Instead Minfilia is throwing punches and lashing out based on less harm than the entire Eorzean + Doman alliance had while they were confronting Varis. It made her look impulsive, shortsighted, and narrow-minded to me at that stage, which is primarily a problem because we're supposed to take her seriously as leader of the Scions.

[Gemina]

Wait, ANY of them had impact?

I kid you not, I actually had to google who Meffrid was (case in point i guess). Papalymo is unceremoniously killed off to buy us a few levels of time, and then promptly forgotten, only to be brought up for roughly one sentence every blue moon. Also his death was not the catalyst for Yda's transformation, more like an obstacle that had to be removed in order to get... Lyse. We lost two scions that day.

Conrad was flagged for death from the moment he appeared in the story, and was only there as a placeholder so Lyse can promptly take his place.

But yes, BillyKaplan is right in that its just cheap writing. My point was more around the lines, that female characters get usually better even at their worst.

Of those three characters, Meffrid was the most impactful. Which is kind of crazy considering Papalymo is a fellow Scion. As you pointed out, Conrad was doomed from day one so there was absolutely no reason to invest in him at all. Papalymo was absent for nearly the entirety of HW, so by the time he comes back for his prompt dismissal most of us have already disconnected from him. If there was a Scion to kill off, he was the prime candidate.

Meffrid was a bit different though. I'd wager most of us don't even recall what we did for him when comes along saying, "You may not remember me, but I'll never forget what you did for us..." The MSQ is pretty good at acknowledging that we can't keep track of everyone we help and reacquaints us when we need it. The thing with Miffred though is that I caught no foreshadowing of his incoming death, so when it happened after everything he says and aspires to do, it shocked me. It is often shocking when a will of fire is put out. It seemed to be there to assist the push for the despair felt by the WoL and other Scions during the attack. Particularly for the WoL because someone they once saved is now dead. I don't feel he was cheap writing at all.

The current male figures that would have a large impact if they died are Alphinaud, Raubahn, Hien, and Aymeric. Three of the four represent city states, with Hien pretty much representing the entire East. And I think their deaths being so impactful is a big reason why they are still around. Alphy and Hien in particular would be game changers, but each of them would just be devastating. Things would just not be the same at all anymore if we lost any of them.

[Kazhim]

Really agree with you on most of this, have only one spot I mainly disagree and one thing your post reminded me of!

The disagreement is that I don't have a problem with Minfilia's outfit being impractically fanservice-y per se, particularly in a game like final fantasy where rule of pretty/exciting is a force that hits most characters indiscriminately. You could theoretically wield a sword twice your height thicker than your entire torso for no reason but because it looks cool lol. I'm willing to cut a lot of slack here for aesthetics.

My issue with Minfilia's clothing design is that it doesn't stand out in any interesting way imo. I know people have varying opinions on Lyse but personally I found her take on the blonde hair/blue eyes/ponytail/bellyshirt much more visually interesting and tonally strong compared to Minfilia. Plus, like you said, she's a monk so makes a bit of sense with movement at least.

Nothing in Minfilia's design suggests that she leads the scions. Nothing presents her as an authority or even really says much about her. She doesn't particularly stand out at all. There's no real tone besides "pure, good-looking, girly", which... feels kind of vague and underwhelming for the leader of the Scions. Seems like a missed opportunity.

The other thing though? It bothered m a TON at the time before I forgot, but the scene where Elidibus approaches Minfilia trying to talk peacefully pisses me off because of how next level bad Minfilia was at handling that. That could have been an insane opportunity to negotiate, learn wtf the Ascians are doing, and potentially head off a ton of the later Ascian-caused disasters. Elidibus at that point hadn't directly done anything heinous to the player's knowledge and kept stating over and over he wasn't there to fight. Instead Minfilia is throwing punches and lashing out based on less harm than the entire Eorzean + Doman alliance had while they were confronting Varis. It made her look impulsive, shortsighted, and narrow-minded to me at that stage, which is primarily a problem because we're supposed to take her seriously as leader of the Scions.

agreed with this.

But i bet that she never went out from her desk room, it affect her mind.

Lets talk directly, Minfilia is a mistake in this game, there is nothing to save her

and Lyse, i m not really agree with her design, Mighois sounds more close to arabic and african kind, than sweden blond girl, but doesnt matter. Her cloth can be logical, but still i dont find them serious, and her pant armor is not the best thing to wear as shaolin monk.

and on Her role, she is just a dumb american blond turist, not very insight, and not at all educated for leading war, she has poor intervention, she speaking too much, and like minfilia she doesnt have any major role, she just stand on our side, and watch us do the job. I mean, Yugiri is more legitim to lead a rebellion than Lyse.

[Vidu]

Really agree with you on most of this, have only one spot I mainly disagree and one thing your post reminded me of!

The disagreement is that I don't have a problem with Minfilia's outfit being impractically fanservice-y per se, particularly in a game like final fantasy where rule of pretty/exciting is a force that hits most characters indiscriminately. You could theoretically wield a sword twice your height thicker than your entire torso for no reason but because it looks cool lol. I'm willing to cut a lot of slack here for aesthetics.

My issue with Minfilia's clothing design is that it doesn't stand out in any interesting way imo. I know people have varying opinions on Lyse but personally I found her take on the blonde hair/blue eyes/ponytail/bellyshirt much more visually interesting and tonally strong compared to Minfilia. Plus, like you said, she's a monk so makes a bit of sense with movement at least.

Nothing in Minfilia's design suggests that she leads the scions. Nothing presents her as an authority or even really says much about her. She doesn't particularly stand out at all. There's no real tone besides "pure, good-looking, girly", which... feels kind of vague and underwhelming for the leader of the Scions. Seems like a missed opportunity.

The other thing though? It bothered m a TON at the time before I forgot, but the scene where Elidibus approaches Minfilia trying to talk peacefully pisses me off because of how next level bad Minfilia was at handling that. That could have been an insane opportunity to negotiate, learn wtf the Ascians are doing, and potentially head off a ton of the later Ascian-caused disasters. Elidibus at that point hadn't directly done anything heinous to the player's knowledge and kept stating over and over he wasn't there to fight. Instead Minfilia is throwing punches and lashing out based on less harm than the entire Eorzean + Doman alliance had while they were confronting Varis. It made her look impulsive, shortsighted, and narrow-minded to me at that stage, which is primarily a problem because we're supposed to take her seriously as leader of the Scions.

In regards to Minfilias outfit: I think one of the issues I have with it that it does stand out - maybe not because its an excellent design by itself (thats down to taste in the end after all), but because all other Scions at that point are wearing "generic gear", as in: gear thats available to the player aswell (give or take a few details) and not specifically made for them.
For Minfilia they went out of their way to tailor her clothes and what they gave her doesnt support her role as a leader or diplomatic figure (at least not in my eyes).
Fanservice is okay to me, when its not only (or mostly) fanservice. As I said in my previous post: Its not an issue when a character is pretty or wears pretty/sexy clothes! It becomes an issue to me when the character is just that.

The issue is enhanced in the case of Minfilia because they're pretending like thats not the case! With the upcoming Little Ladies Day I cant help but think of the Songbirds again, who are pretty much fanservice aswell in a sense - but they dont pretend like those girls are having any politcal influence.

For Minfilia its pretty much a combination of the discrepancy between what we're told shes doing or that shes important and not seeing that, aswell as seeing her incompetence in more than one way (fighting, self defense, damsel in distress, failing "negotiations") with her overall looks just being icing on the cake.
My main complaint isnt really that shes wearing something that I'd describe as "pink-leather-bellydancer"-outfit or that shes this pretty blonde girl, but more that she doesnt act in a fashion that would make her a believable, important character. If it wasnt for her looks however, I'd be willing to brush that off as just bad writing for that character. WITH her looks it turns into the "just eye-candy" that I have a problem with.

For someone who hasnt played 1.0 it was also kinda "confusing" that all of the other Scions seemed to believe that Minfilia was important or just that they valued and respected her so much (I'm giving Thancred a pass here though). Yet she never did anything to earn this respect - at least nothing that I could witness myself. So she never earned my respect.

...a very personal reason for me to dislike her that is kinda linked to that is Moenbrydas sacrifice - I'd like to believe that Moeny would have just saved anyone, because thats the type of person she was, because the alternative of a great character with a lot of potential giving her life for Minfilia specifically is just frustrating since I cant see why that was a fair exchange. I cant see why Minfilia was so important that its worth giving your life for hers. (But this might be my Moeny-Bias talking...)

To sum it up: Minfilia has many flaws - I could forgive each of them indivually though.
I could live with a passive questgiver-character whos dressed modestly and clearly just some sort of "cue giver to move the plot forwards".
I could live with a pretty blonde whos actually taking action.
I could live with a defenseless Minfilia whos trying to better herself, even if she fails.
I could live with a character who doesnt do anything, if that character isnt constantly present and refered to as a super important person.
I could live with fanservice if it wasnt for the fact that one of the "main characters" was nothing but fanservice.

For Minfilia its really a combination of a lot of things. Despite the fact that she cant fight she even makes me think of a Mary Sure type of character: shes pretty, everyone loves her, she has special talents, everything revolves around her...
...yet everything functions perfectly fine without her.

I'm not looking forward to her comeback, I dont trust them to write an actual character for her - I still hope to be pleasently surprised of course, but as it stands right now... I cant wait to cast her into the abyss...

[-Teria-]

Meffrid. Conrad.

...Who?
Haurchefant was Aerith levels of sad for me and I will remember best boy forever.
Meffrid and Conrad I barely remember existing at all.