Did Matoya just possess Y'shtola's body?

[polyphonica]

Late reply, but my theory, for whatever it's worth...

Rather than Matoya possessing Y'shtola's body, I suspect it's the other way around. I think the Scions' souls were sent to another dimension in the past, and while visiting there they are inhabiting other hosts. They've suggested and shown in the past that this is one of the powers of the echo. When inhabiting a host's body, you gain the skill/affinity of the host (which is why Elidibus comments that he can kill the WoL while in Zenos' body). So if Y'shtola's soul is inhabiting Matoya's body while visiting the other dimension (explains her being a black mage), we can speculate that the other scions are also inhabiting other hosts. My first thoughts are that Urianger might be Rufin, Leveva's father and a fellow Sharlayan. Thancred, on the other hand, might be Warburton, which is why he's protecting young Minfilia, and could explain also his gunbreaker skills (from his time infiltrating the Garleans but with a different twist than typical Garlean gunblades). It may either be that they've taken their own appearance while inhabiting the host body (as has appeared to have happened in some other cases before), or (perhaps more likely?) that those with the echo can see their true appearance while others in-universe still perceive them as the original hosts.

This would basically mean that at least part of the zones in Shadowbreakers would not exist in the same timeline/continuity as current Eorzea, but presumably they'll find some way to attune with the crystals in the other dimension/timeline so the WoL can teleport there at will. I suppose that might mean, in 4.56, we'll finally communicate with whoever's calling us and they'll explain what needs to be done to cross the threshold safely, and the start of 5.0 will be us teleporting there and waking up in the other plane. That may be (a version of) the scene at the beginning of the Teaser Trailer -- awakening in this other realm overrun by the light and turning into the warrior of darkness to counter it. It could be the continuation of the 3.4 story, and the attempted solution to save that plane from being overrun with light.

[Lauront]

On that topic...

I took Elidibus to be saying that simply because he is Elidibus, a Paragon of the Source, as well as Zodiark's Emissary. The Ascians, from what we know, erase/suppress their hosts' personalities altogether and it's never been implied that they felt the need to draw on their affinities to take down their foes... especially one who has already lost to you. Granted, he mentions Zenos's adamant flesh, but we know that even lesser Paragons, like Nabriales, could significantly enhance the strength of their hosts, so I struggle to see the materiality of it. If I had to hazard a guess as to what Elidibus is getting at, it might be to do with whatever lasting effects imbuing the Resonance into Zenos had on his body. It's still unclear how that might relate to it, though, since it is the soul which bears he artificial echo, but perhaps it also makes the body more susceptible to Ascian possession in some way - perhaps, better yet, such a body has been engineered so as to insulate it from Hydaelyn being able to dislodge him from it altogether. Also, he was trying to convince Varis to act faster, more than anything else. Once he realises the original Zenos is still around, he may well just give him the body back, since Zenos wants to kill the WoL anyway, but empower him with something like a mini Blessing of Darkness, so that he stands a better chance.

I also don't buy all this for another reason - essentially your mind and soul are one and the same in the setting. So you'd expect any memories and skill affinities to attach to the soul, and not the body of the host, and this is consistent with how things like the soul crystals function. Unless they were to somehow latch onto the soul of the host - really, it'd have to be closer to suppression if the body is not vacated, to avoid scenarios like Genbu's - I don't find such a storyline particularly plausible, and in fact I'd prefer they did their utmost to avoid it. I hope that if it's what going on with Matoya/Y'shtola, it is limited to her.

For the time being, with the information given, I am going to run with the assumption that Y'shtola has, for some reason, been prevented from returning to her body, and thus Matoya has taken hold of it using means we're as yet not aware of - could be the Echo, could be something else.

On...

Well also don't forget

Zenos' body was taken over but Zenos appears to have spiritually hijacked a body of his own - which was one of the Elezen resistance fighters. I am still curious to that one since we haven't seen anything about it for a while

That's also why I'm starting to find the whole thing silly.

It is, a bit. As for Zenos, I'm partial to the view Elidibus will realise he's back, and eager to kill the WoL, and hand him his body back, and perhaps endow him with some manner of Blessing of Darkness to put him on an even footing with you. It makes more sense than a sudden change of heart or a throwaway fight with him, or pointlessly antagonising Elidibus and dying in the process, since for the time being, both he and Elidibus have a shared goal, plus Elidibus no doubt has his prior host, which he could move back to. The moment we first saw Elezenos, he reaffirmed his intention to hunt the WoL down. It also gives SE more room to hide who exactly Elidibus will be possessing in 5.0, if they make it sufficiently vague as to where he vanishes off to.

[LineageRazor]

Late reply, but my theory, for whatever it's worth...

My reply probably doesn't need to be spoilered, but...

I really hope that the First Shard (or any Shard) is not populated with exact copies of individuals from the Source. The Shards split from the Source something like ten thousand years ago, and have been following their own paths ever since. What are the odds that a second Warburton or Rufin or whoever would be born after so many years of divergence?

Even if we assume that every Shard has followed exactly the same path for ten thousand years, the Ascians have been stirring things up on the Shards since prior to the Third Astral Era (we know that it was Ascian involvement that lead to the Thirteenth's Flood of Darkness). Unless they'd left the First totally untouched until very recently, even a little bit of Ascian meddling would snowball into a lot of divergence over the course of centuries.

In short, if there ARE copies of people we know on the First Shard, it will be a painful strain on suspension of disbelief!

[Bright-Flower]

Same. I don't mind going to other realms but I don't want to meet alternate versions of characters. The WOD party being from the cinematics I don't mind because those cinematic characters are just stand ins for the player character and using them was a fun nod, but I don't want to meet alterate Thancred/Minfilia etc. It would be incredibly lame IMO.

[Lauront]

Exactly, and the divergence LineageRazor mentions is significant here in making such scenarios improbable in regards to other dimensions. They could be accommodated if time travel backwards were to occur on the Source, but I am very much hoping that's not where they're going with all this...

[polyphonica]

Exactly, and the divergence LineageRazor mentions is significant here in making such scenarios improbable in regards to other dimensions. They could be accommodated if time travel backwards were to occur on the Source, but I am very much hoping that's not where they're going with all this...

I'm probably wrong (it's fun to theorize), but it seems to me that time travel in one way or another is certainly implied by the trailer, anyway, though of course like everything it's designed to confuse and mislead at this stage. Besides the obvious "if history must be rewritten" tagline part, you have Thancred protecting young Minfilia and Y'shtola being referred to as Matoya. Combined with the fact that their spirits were called but the aetherial thread just vanishes, there seem to be only a few viable choices to where they went: an alternate dimension (one of the shards?), an alternate reality on the source, or time travel in one direction or the other.

One small reason I don't think it is actually Matoya in spirit is because of her line "until our friend returns" -- if it were actually Matoya from the present (even in a different body), I find it unlikely she would refer to the WoL as "our friend" the way Y'shtola refers to the WoL. Also, in the Japanese dub, Urianger does the opposite of the English dub in just calling her "Matoya" (and not "Matoya-sama") which seems pretty irregular (unless they have a whole past history we don't know yet). In both cases, it makes me think that the name is being used in sort of quotes. It could be as some are speculating that she's taken on the "mantle" of Matoya for some reason (which would explain the black mage), but all the rest of the scions also have a conveniently timed job change that probably wouldn't happen without reason.

In any event, once we know the truth (whatever it is) it'll be neat to go back and realize the hints we missed. I'm sure they're there, somewhere...

[Theodric]

My issue with time travel is that it is often used as an excuse to have a bunch of bad things happen only to conveniently reverse them not too long afterwards. Usually in such a way as to have the negative consequences for the antagonists remain intact whereas those affecting the protagonists are erased. I find such an approach very boring. The Warrior of Light, for obvious reasons, is going to remain mostly unscathed no matter what happens. That's completely understandable.

Yet something like time travel should not be embraced without a dire cost. Otherwise it simply comes across as cheap. I enjoyed the use of time travel in Donnie Darko the most out of the movies I've seen use it as a plot device. I'll remain vague to avoid spoilers but...hopefully if time travel is involved then it'll take a similar approach to the movie.

[MetalSnakeXI1]

Same. I don't mind going to other realms but I don't want to meet alternate versions of characters. The WOD party being from the cinematics I don't mind because those cinematic characters are just stand ins for the player character and using them was a fun nod, but I don't want to meet alterate Thancred/Minfilia etc. It would be incredibly lame IMO.

Oh trust me I don't want that at all cuz it'd be lazy

Tho honestly I don't like the idea of travelling to another shard in the first place considering ours is already on the cusp of a new calamity.Maybe in 6.0 but for now I want Shadowbringers to focus on the source's growing problems with the flood of light and Solus's machinations

[Berethos]

you have Thancred protecting young Minfilia

While her appearing in a younger form might suggest time travel, she also appears with the distinct blue eyes that she gained when she became the Word of the Mother, which strongly suggests it's the modern Minfilia.

[polyphonica]

While her appearing in a younger form might suggest time travel, she also appears with the distinct blue eyes that she gained when she became the Word of the Mother, which strongly suggests it's the modern Minfilia.

So maybe we could speculate that Minfilia had to incarnate in a younger form because her powers are limited due to whatever is going on (which is why Thancred is protecting her)? Maybe the thinning aether on the Source was needed to do the "calling" and that is taxing Hydaelyn even further? Of course, still raises the question of where/when they are, but yeah... I guess we'll know soon enough...