Love for the female characters

[Tsumdere]

I love well-done female characters. My favorite Final Fantasy characters of all time is Yuna from X.

But... I just don't feel like a lot of the female characters in this game are very well written personally. You get those absolute shining stars like Yotsuyu, Iceheart, and Moenbryda, and then really just weak, boring ones like Lyse and Cirina. For me, a lot more of the male characters have personality to them and I remember them fondly. I didn't come out of SB annoyed at a single male character, but lort was I irked at a bunch of the female ones.

And honestly? You can find a TON of artwork of specific female characters, usually the ones that are more popular with the female fanbase like Yotsuyu, Iceheart, or Sadu.

[Kalise]

-Snip-

Again, much of Lyse's development doesn't really come through that well. Especially WoL's impact on it. Since, as you say, she see's a bunch of stuff that could change her view of things (Though, does it really? I kept getting the impression that it was just reinforcing her mindset in regards to "Imperials = bad" which is literally ingrained into her very character what with being Ala Mhigan and thus already having a hatred of the Imperials)

Alphinaud, is not a character I'm particularly fond of, especially with how so many characters seem to depend on him to justify themselves (I.e. Krile and Alisae often use him as a focal point for their interactions with the WoL). But he at least has very clear character development. Starting with the setting up of the Crystal Braves, being a cocky young boy who thinks he knows how to handle things. Then it all goes to hell and then he hits the teenage mopey depression. Then WoL lifts him up and he starts to realize how naive he was but at the same time, starts to understand that he can have a meaningful impact on the world he just has to stop and think things through before acting. All thanks to the journey he takes alongside the WoL and the interactions between them and the situations they find themselves in.

Like, Lyse's most influential character development stems from... Not changing? Not becoming jaded and not being affected by self-doubt. As opposed to falling into them and then overcoming them with the help of those around her (Including the WoL). The closest she came to overcoming something like this is post Zenos attacking Rhalgr's Reach where many people stopped believing in the Resistance, where she stuck things out and carried on the fight.

On Aymeric vs Estinien. Estinien has more reason to hate Nidhogg himself. That's whom his quarrel is with. That's his sole purpose as the Azure Dragoon, to kill specifically Nidhogg. As far as dragons as a whole, Aymeric has way more reason to hate dragons, given he cares so deeply about Ishgard and its people.

Aymeric rises above the pain of 1000 years of Ishgard being tormented and countless lives being lost and tries to create peace. Estinen, has his 1 singular purpose on his mind until it is complete (When, he then becomes the shade of Nidhogg because after no longer having a purpose he let his guard slip for a second).

Aymeric then even learns about the lies his father has been telling the people and the reason behind all the senseless bloodshed of Ishgards people. Again, he rises above it.

Meanwhile, Ysayle's all like "I'm Shiva lelelel Estinen stop murdering dragons! " all the way until Hraesvelgr shatters her entire perception of herself and forces her to open her mind to alternative points of view, like Aymeric had been showing from literally his initial meeting with her (Due to the fact that he literally met with her so that she could introduce him to Hraesvelgr to parley, completely outside of what would have been expected and if found out Aymeric would have been branded a Heretic and completely shunned from the city if not outright executed on sight)

Like, not even a hint of "You know what, maybe 1000 years of being attacked by dragons might leave people a little jaded" leading to "Perhaps I can give the people the benefit of the doubt, with some exceptions like Estinen "I'm gonna stab Nidhogg in the face" Wyrmblood over there"

[Iscah]

As a side note: I hope in the future we get some more involvement from [...] Merlwyb (Who, despite being so badass, we don't really get to see doing much outside sitting in her office doing politics stuff)

Merlwyb has the serious gameplay disadvantage of being a "non-existent class". Raubahn is a gladiator, Kan-E is a white mage. Stick those character models on an appropriate battle-AI and they're ready to go.

But there isn't a dual-wielding pistol class, so Merlwyb either does scripted stuff in cutscenes, or gets sidelined. At least I assume this is the reason for it.

I certainly hope they'll fix this in future, or find an alternate class for her. (What do you think she'd make of a gunblade...?)

[Kalise]

Merlwyb has the serious gameplay disadvantage of being a "non-existent class". Raubahn is a gladiator, Kan-E is a white mage. Stick those character models on an appropriate battle-AI and they're ready to go.

But there isn't a dual-wielding pistol class, so Merlwyb either does scripted stuff in cutscenes, or gets sidelined. At least I assume this is the reason for it.

I certainly hope they'll fix this in future, or find an alternate class for her. (What do you think she'd make of a gunblade...?)

Simple fix is add a dual wielding pistol class

I mean... We're due a new physical ranged damage dealer soon as it is...

[Ceridwenae]

Simple fix is add a dual wielding pistol class

I mean... We're due a new physical ranged damage dealer soon as it is...

I'd be all over that in a shot. Ha, ha,..aha =) Sorry.

Sticking firmly to the topic title (even if I find how some female characters are written and/or presented to be problematic to say the least), Tataru is my poster-tato for all that is right in the world. She's in trouble? Get her safe. She needs help with something? I'm there yesterday. She's tirelessly working for the betterment of all (even if the fashion choices are... dubious, bless her), knows her limitations and her strengths. She's just awesome. Second poster-tato honours to Nanamo. I think she's a fine leader, again cognisant of her limitations and playing to her strengths.

Then there's Moenbryda, Gone Too Soon. She was awesome and presumably great for weekends down at the pub. Missed opportunity right there.

I like Alisaie. I think of her like a pixel daughter (Alphi is pixel son, evokes the same feelings). I want the best for her and will be an angry football mother if she does not get it.

Sadu is brilliant. Mad as a hatter, but so much fun and not really for any of the right reasons. How she deals with Magnai is fantastic - the laughter is infectious*. And if I didn't admire the brains and conduct of Y'shtola already, how she also dealt with Magnai would've sealed that deal. I find her inspirational.

I like Cirina too. For me, she proves you don't have to be hardcore all the time to be hardcore all the time.


*I actually feel sorry for Magnai. There's layers there.

[Jaywalker]

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Idk again, Lyse's development seemed clear as day to me. She starts off as an absolute follower who hides in the shadows of others and follows their leads. WoL, she talks to as an equal and confidant but without hiding and without depending on WoL to make decisions the way she used to rely on others--instead lending support and trying to sort through her own thoughts independently. She was one of the driving forces (not the only one, obviously Ilberd pushed the envelop) to intervening with Ala Mhigo to begin with. Her initial approach was marked by temptation to just run in and fight. We see this when she's tempted to go with Griffin!Ilberd even though she knows intellectually this isn't a good idea. When due to Shinryu and so on she does get the opportunity, she is very naïve about how much the Scions and Eorzean Alliance can accomplish immediately. She (among others) underestimates Zenos, and people die because of that. Going to Doma she has more caution and recognizes the need for subtlety, patience, and strategy. Yugiri and the WoL are both compromised in a way that Lyse, who has been champing at the bit, resists. This is also despite her own doubts about whether or not she is qualified to have the influence she does. When she returns to Ala Mhigo, she has gained insight and experience and uses these to make the revolution a success.

Also. I don't understand why Lyse should be expected to think Imperials aren't evil. This isn't talking about the Populares, who are not imperialistic. This isn't talking about Garleans as a whole, when many defectors have been steady allies throughout the MSQ. It's not talking about the regular civilians or people swept up in the political mess whether they want to be or not. Lyse even manages to show compassion for characters who she'd previously despised and wanted to kill, like Fordola. She literally comments that as much as she despised Zenos, he was just a person too and had been an "innocent baby" at one point. That seems like really really obvious, specific, readily observable character growth IMO and shows that Lyse's views are nuanced.

The Garlean Empire takes its political cues from multiple authoritarian regimes that have committed genocide across history. Nazi Germany, Maoist China, North Korea, the Soviet Union, Imperialist Japan. It's not a stand in for any single real world nation but its specific tactics mirror the practices that actual authoritarian nations employ. It wouldn't be reasonable to argue that someone is a bad or an undeveloped person because they aren't willing to condone authoritarians promoting such methods... especially when their own people are victims. If anything Lyse is remarkably more forgiving with her treatment of Fordola and opinion of Zenos than most people would be under those circumstances.

I actually think Alphinaud still needs to realize that while he messed up, he's not the only one responsible for what happened with the Crystal Braves. Deciding this all rests on him, an inexperienced teen, is still arrogant in a bizarre way. I think he's been quietly getting better but it hasn't been explicitly addressed yet. Also, IIRC mainly Haurchefant and Tataru broke him out of the worst of his mess. WoL does inspire him to keep going and pick himself up, and I think there's a lot of room for speculation on that and whether Alphinaud realizes the WoL has been through their own hell but hasn't stopped. I think it also ties into him looking up to WoL as opposed to seeing them as an equal. He aspires to keep going the way WoL has.

It actually feels like we must have played different games a bit (makes this conversation feel a little surreal haha) because I saw Lyse influenced by self-doubt repeatedly and explicitly. It's something she has to overcome, but it actually read as more gracefully done and more present than most other characters to me. Like there were multiple cutscenes where she talked about needing to not be her father or her sister, worrying that as someone who left Ala Mhigo she had no right to direct its future, even being aware enough to understand she had a habit of following others instead of forging her own path. It struck me as one of the biggest points for her character. I don't mean to be rude at all truly, I'm just very confused what you thought was going on in those scenes.

Speaking frankly, Aymeric is not 1000 years old. He does not personally know every person in Ishgard who died and who has experienced loss. He loves his country and is willing to die for them if necessary, but that somewhat abstract connection he has does not translate to more hate toward dragons. Losing people you grew up with for your whole life is very much more immediately painful and tangible than knowing a bunch of strangers lost their lives. When it's strangers, you can imagine but not truly comprehend the loss due to lack of context. Estinien couldn't imagine a world where he could let go and focus on living instead of killing this creature that in his own eyes had ruined his life. He didn't see any future beyond destroying the dragon who in his view had destroyed him. Aymeric is very much focused on building a life for not simply himself but all of Ishgard. He never loses sight of that future because his worldview focuses on his love for his people. And again, even with that tremendous love for his people and his empathy I can guarantee he'd react differently if Lucia died in front of him compared to a stranger or even a whole group of strangers, because he knows her personally.

Aymeric is a strong character who risks a lot and I love him to pieces, but his story is not about him overcoming personal hatred for others. I don't think there's a single scene I can remember where he showed hatred for someone else. Anger and disappointment sure, but not hate. I think Estinien's hate actually came from despair and emptiness at losing the people he loved most, and hatred was a way to pretend he was stronger than that really left him. It feels stronger to lash out than to cry.

XD I get you personally don't like Ysayle, and she wasn't nice, but I'd argue her characterization still makes sense and is solid. You and I might not have acted the way she did, but we didn't live her life either. It's important to have variety of personalities and viewpoints in stories, particularly because that's how it is in life too. Fiction's a safe way to look at and try to understand different views and behaviors.

[purgatori]

At times, I would have to say that my perceptions align with yours, OP, but I'm very careful not to grant too much credence to those perceptions because I recognise myself to be WAY too biased. How biased? Well, I really only ever like female characters in media (whether games, books, TV series, movies, etc.), with male characters ranging from 'I really can't stand him' to 'he's tolerable' or a very rare 'he's pretty cool' (off the top of my head, the only examples that would come to mind are certain male Star Trek characters). This has nothing to do with politics—I'm an extremely apolitical person—it's just the way I've always been.

My huge bias having being stated up front, I do find the female cast for FFXIV a bit weaker than a lot of other FF titles (especially FFXIII/XIII-2/LR, which I loved, shockingly). Y'Shtola is amazing, Lyse & Yugiri ain't bad, and there was a good character in Minfilia just waiting for development of some sort... But I feel that it's only really Y'Shtola who could compare to the likes of Aranea, Lightning, Fang, Tifa, Fran, Edea, Tera, etc. But on the other hand, I feel that all the supporting characters suffer a little bit as a result of putting too much focus on the WoL constantly saving the day almost singlehandedly (or with the help of nameless 'adventurer friends') and the annoying nonsense from Alphinaud & Alisaie that gets so much of the spotlight for some reason (I really don't like these characters, and doubt I ever will; no offence to their fans). Is any of this really a huge issue? Nah, not at all. There is just some fine-tuning that I would do if I were granted the power to mould the game to conform with my own selfish preferences.

[Zumi]

I liked the female Au Ra characters Cirina, Yugiri, and Kurenai.

[Limonia]

This reminds me of an anime/manga community site I was in years ago.
There were mostly girls who shipped male characters with themselves or other male characters, and a lot of them hated all female characters because they were either rivals for themselves or for the male characters they shipped them with...
The few male community members were much more normal and liked the characters for how they were.
I, as a female who usually likes both male and female characters in games, anime and so on, was constantly one of the few defending the females. xD

In FFXIV I think it's mostly because we do have more better written male characters than females though. Some females are kind of bland. Or maybe they are nice, good, well written or so indeed, but they lack something that makes them really, really likeable.
I have much more male FFXIV characters that I really like than females. The female FFXIV character I like the most is Alisaie. Before she appeared in the MSQ again I didn't even have a favorite female character. And even Alisaie doesn't compare to some favorite female characters from other games, animes etc. by far. But it's actually quite often that male characters are more a "full package" than female characters somehow. I mean, they don't have to be. I really liked Nina from Breath of Fire IV, even though she is kind of bland. But often it's not only how they are written as a character, but some other factors too. Though she's just a "stereotypical naive princess"-type of character, Nina is just so cute and loveable for whatever reason. And I like healers in cute dresses with staves as weapons. We don't have many important "cute" female characters in FFXIV. Lyse and Y'shtola aren't cute, but more "cool". Of course I also like cool. One of my favorite FF characters is Ashe from FF12 and the way she acts isn't really cute. Alisaie actually reminds me of her a little, personality-wise. But what's also important is the look and Alisaie's hairstyle is just horrible. And she's an Elezen. While I like Elezen, I just like small (or at least normal sized) female characters much more. Alisaie's still fine now, but she will get that Elezen proportions someday, even though the game's story will probably not go that far anyway. Most people just prefer normal proportions or there wouldn't be so many that play female Miqo'te or Au Ra instead of Elezen or Roegadyn.
They tried to have such a character with Lyse, but because people were used to Yda and Lyse not only "stole" her but also is kind of like John Cena('s gimmick... or Vaan), that she absolutely HAS to get credit for everything and HAS to act really important, thinking she's great at the mic while not really doing as good as she thinks, it kind of didn't work. I don't dislike Lyse at all (I do dislike Cena and Vaan though), but the way she's portrayed is kind of lacking.
Other characters like Yugiri are just a little bit too boring and bland. Or, they are good personality-wise, but too unimportant (like Krile, who also is a Lalafell...). No wonder Y'shtola is the "poster girl" because of all the FFXIV girls she fulfills the most traits of what a lot of people like in female characters. While I think she's alright, she is also lacking whatever it is she is lacking, which I can't describe (personally, I also just hate her dark lipstick).

[kidalutz]

I love absolutely love all the characters in this game. I even liked that poor one eyed lancer you meet after Satasha even with their three lines. And Averes group as well. Oh cant forget my bestie Alisae.