Gunbreaker gameplay hope and expectations

[Lyth]

This is an important discussion to be having, especially in the context of discussing Gunbreaker. Aesthetics are only part of the picture. When new content hits, players are going to be asking themselves why they should take this job. If there isn't a clear way in which it can distinguish itself, people will stick with what they know (WAR/PLD). It happened this way in the start of Heavensward, too.

This doesn't mean that it has to be powerful across the board. It just needs to have something that it's really good at. Right now, I can't actually see what that could be, because pretty much everything is "WAR's turf". Best mobility and knockback prevention? Onslaught. Most powerful snap enmity tools? Onslaught/Equilibrium/Unchained. Hardest hitting attack? Fell cleave. Most powerful burst window? IR. Most powerful AoE? Decimate. Most powerful lifesteal? Steel Cyclone. Most powerful invincibility cooldown? Holmgang. Most powerful tank raidwide defensive? Shake it Off.

So where does Gunbreaker fit in? Using ammo is an aesthetic decision. What is this job going to excel in? That's the discussion to be having.

As far as theorycrafting is concerned, you can take it with a grain of salt. It's very possible to spend so much time plugging numbers into formulae that you don't actually play the game. I find it amusing that when reality (i.e. actual content) doesn't match up to our simulations, we accuse reality of being wrong.

I think it's perfectly valid to ask questions on how data is collected and appraised. That's how you critically evaluate things. More often than not, you'll find more rhetoric than fact. And a lot of backpedalling.

[Burningskull]

This is an important discussion to be having, especially in the context of discussing Gunbreaker. Aesthetics are only part of the picture. When new content hits, players are going to be asking themselves why they should take this job. If there isn't a clear way in which it can distinguish itself, people will stick with what they know (WAR/PLD). It happened this way in the start of Heavensward, too.

This doesn't mean that it has to be powerful across the board. It just needs to have something that it's really good at. Right now, I can't actually see what that could be, because pretty much everything is "WAR's turf". Best mobility and knockback prevention? Onslaught. Most powerful snap enmity tools? Onslaught/Equilibrium/Unchained. Hardest hitting attack? Fell cleave. Most powerful burst window? IR. Most powerful AoE? Decimate. Most powerful lifesteal? Steel Cyclone. Most powerful invincibility cooldown? Holmgang. Most powerful tank raidwide defensive? Shake it Off.

So where does Gunbreaker fit in? Using ammo is an aesthetic decision. What is this job going to excel in? That's the discussion to be having.

As far as theorycrafting is concerned, you can take it with a grain of salt. It's very possible to spend so much time plugging numbers into formulae that you don't actually play the game. I find it amusing that when reality (i.e. actual content) doesn't match up to our simulations, we accuse reality of being wrong.

I think it's perfectly valid to ask questions on how data is collected and appraised. That's how you critically evaluate things. More often than not, you'll find more rhetoric than fact. And a lot of backpedalling.

I picked up tank just to get use to it just so I could play Gunbreaker only because Gunblades are my favorite weapon in FF. I'll play Gunbreaker weather it's the worst or the best. Granted I don't raid and have no desire to raid. Ex Primals are about as difficult as I like my MMO content and even then the effort to do them just doesn't seem worth it much anymore.

[DBelmont]

I imagine ammunition to be a mix of Dark Arts and Aetherflow/MCH. However, there is a chance some skills may be "triggered" AFTER using them to emulate the timing from FF8.

Also curious about the immunity CD.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

All I see is WAR envy.

There are many ways for Gunbreakers to shine or have a niche. We don't even know what general changes we are getting in ShB to the existing tanks. Yoshi-P himself said they are looking into ways to balance the four tanks either by pushing 2 into MT and the other 2 into OT or finding some other way like synergy.

To your comment:

For knockback "prevention", DRK has Plunge and PLD has Tempered Will. DRK is a bit on the short edge because Plunge is good DPS while Onslaught is neutral. PLD wins this one because Tempered Will and ranged attacks (Holy Spirit).

Snap Enmity? Need I remind you of DAPS? Yes, when WAR really wants enmity no one is taking it. Still DAPS is not a big DPS loss. DADP is stronger than Equilibrum (280x3 vs 600, refer to heal enmity). DA Plunge is unique to DRK where we can sustain enmity at neutral DPS, unlike WAR or PLD.

Hardest hitting attack? Really?! Check your Bloodspiller tooltip and WAR's Fell Cleave tooltip, account for buffs if you like.

Bust window? DRK is also VERY bursty. I've seen DRKs open up with 9k DPS. It's just not as simple as press IR and spam hardest hitting GCD.

Most powerful AoE? That's a new one. All those people screaming "DRK king of AoE" out there? Granted IR Decimates is, well, decimating. DRK has Salted Earth which is 500 potency oGCD. DP is 140, boostable by DA and oGCD. Quietus is 160/210. AD is 125. All of these are buffed by 20% darkside. If you play it right, you will throw out way more AoEs than WAR. It isn't as simple as press IR and spam 1 button, but you can do more than that.

DAAD is more life steal than Steel Cyclone.

Holmgang isn't most "powerful". It just has the shortest CD. That trophy goes to PLD.

Raid-wide mitigation, Shake it Off barely beats Veil. SiO is party's health, not WAR's. And 8%. Even if buffed. At 12% is ~5k. At 16% it's ~5.5k but why would you feed 2 CDs into Shake it Off? Veil is PLD's HP. In my gear it's ~7,850. Either way, the king of raid-wide mitigation is Passage of Arms. The fact that PLD has 2 CDs to alternate already beats WAR. PLD can do something every minute. WAR every 90s. A good PLD can fit in PoA to mitigate damage without losing a GCD. It lasts ~5 seconds after application too.

Also from the very same study you referred to and linked:


People need to stop taking studies for base value the second numbers don't match and instead should understand the conclusions:


I didn't cut the whole conclusion, the study was already linked and people should REALLY look at it and read the whole thing instead of that one line where it says something and they go: "Oh it said so but FFLogs not reliable, discard". You're only shooting yourself in the foot and continue to feel bad about something you have no control over (and isn't completely accurate).

[Kalise]

Snap Enmity? Need I remind you of DAPS? Yes, when WAR really wants enmity no one is taking it. Still DAPS is not a big DPS loss. DADP is stronger than Equilibrum (280x3 vs 600, refer to heal enmity). DA Plunge is unique to DRK where we can sustain enmity at neutral DPS, unlike WAR or PLD.

Hardest hitting attack? Really?! Check your Bloodspiller tooltip and WAR's Fell Cleave tooltip, account for buffs if you like.

Most powerful AoE? That's a new one. All those people screaming "DRK king of AoE" out there? Granted IR Decimates is, well, decimating. DRK has Salted Earth which is 500 potency oGCD. DP is 140, boostable by DA and oGCD. Quietus is 160/210. AD is 125. All of these are buffed by 20% darkside. If you play it right, you will throw out way more AoEs than WAR. It isn't as simple as press IR and spam 1 button, but you can do more than that.

I'd also like to add the following to this:

Snap enmity - DRK has 2 oGCD skills that can provide massive enmity. Both Plunge and Dark Passenger boosted with DA are insane. Also, with being oGCD that means they can go along with another high enmity skill and thus spend all of 1 GCD to deal massive Enmity. Talking about WAR with Unchained and Equilibrium suggests the WAR is sitting in Defiance for several GCD's to actually make use of Unchained. While DRK can just pop their 2-3 skills and then they're usually done enough to get the frontloaded burst enmity up, given they can then bolster Enmity over time with more DAP/DADP in DPS stance too.

Hardest hitting attack is quite funny. Fell Cleave 520 potency with 5% bonus damage from Deliverance = 546 potency. DA Bloodspiller = 650 potency with 20% bonus damage from Darkside = 780 potency. Goring Blade is even 670 potency (Not accounting for FoF which would push it up to 804 potency). Even if accounting for WAR having Slashing debuff vs the other 2 not it still only puts FC up to 600 potency... The only reason FC seems the strongest is because IR makes it DCH while active, while both other tanks will not see DCH's for their hardest hitting attacks so frequently.

"Most powerful AoE"... Well, if you compare to specifically a 10 second window in which WAR can spam DCH Upheaval... Sure WAR wins. But outside of that? They need to spam ST combo's to access Upheaval and otherwise are left with just Overpower for 130 potency (136.5 with Deliverance damage boost). DRK has Salted Earth (525 potency, boosted by Darkside to 630), Abyssal Drain (120 potency boosted by DS to 144) and Quietus (160/210 potency boosted by DS to 192/252) none of which require them to ST if they manage their mana and blood well. DRK are the kings of AoE damage for tanks, it's just not very relevant in much of raiding...

Honestly, it sometimes feels like all these "WAR is so OP" people haven't even played all 3 tanks... Or are playing with half their skills not on their action bar...

[Kaedan]

I imagine ammunition to be a mix of Dark Arts and Aetherflow/MCH. However, there is a chance some skills may be "triggered" AFTER using them to emulate the timing from FF8.

Also curious about the immunity CD.

Yeah, that's why I think it will probably be closer to NIN. Ammo will be OGCD (we might even be able to mix it) and then we'll "trigger" it with an ability like Ninjutsu.

Just a guess.

[Kalise]

Yeah, that's why I think it will probably be closer to NIN. Ammo will be OGCD (we might even be able to mix it) and then we'll "trigger" it with an ability like Ninjutsu.

Just a guess.

Yeah... It'll be really interesting to see how they end up taking things with the mechanics.

We have such little information about them... Only knowing that it will be unique from DA (Since they said that they wanted to give all Tanks unique identities) and it won't be exactly like FFVIII because it would cause way too many injuries to be spamming a trigger on every hit...

As well as what we see Thancred doing in the trailer (Though, how accurate that would be for the actual job is uncertain) - Which is he reloads the 6 chambers... He also does an attack that is all explody and then leaves the blade glowing red afterwards.

So it could be a plethora of things.

From something like a "Reprisal Mechanic" such as SAM using Seigan after being hit with Third Eye active, only the trigger being using an attack instead of taking one. Sort of like a 1-2 combo with the 2 being an oGCD hit that you'll end up weaving after certain attacks.

It might instead be like MCH's ammo, where we load up before hand and then have additional hits/damage when we strike.

Could be similar to Mudra, in that we pick an effect using an oGCD before using an attack to trigger it.

Replicating Aetherflow is also a possibility, where we just have a reserve of oGCD attacks to use that we naturally weave between hits.

Likely even more stuff is possible too.

[shao32]

More than "WAR is so Op" which there is literaly none on this threat I only see WAR bias post about how WAR is the inferior tank in defense, tank stance, mobility and self-healing and invu, in resume on literally everything, huh we should ask for some WAR buffs instead BCS the data it's complete wrong and the field usage of WAR tools are obviously not dominating in combat at all, I mean onslaught being better that holy spirit on knock backs what a joke right?

[Izsha]

You mention the continued glow. It could also be something more like a stance. Ie: use 'load fire ammo' next gcd does 2x damage and increases damage by 10% for 10 seconds. Basically, an initial strong effect and a lingering weaker effect. An earth bullet may work like Shelton reducing next hit significantly, but have a residual fluff mitigation dat 10%.

Gain these bullets like aetherflow on a static timer so you have to plan and choose how to manage them through a fight. Could be fun.

[Kabooa]

Hardest hitting attack is quite funny.

Gritless DA Bloodspiller is 540. It's only 650 in Grit, which in turn is only because it doesn't ignore Grit's penalty, and it comes out as lower than Gritless in the end.

And for obvious reasons, we don't compare DoTs to Fully upfront attacks. Because DoTs technically have more potency but can still deal less damage. And as a combo ability, Goring Blade isn't in a vacuum, it's potency per GCD, and as it requires two prior steps, that factors in as well.

Fell Cleave outside IR is generally only done to avoid overcap, meaning the Warrior is at 9 or 10 'stacks' and has +9-10% average chance to crit. For a crit stacking warrior, this amounts to an average bonus of 5-6%.