Regarding the Revision of the Prohibited Activities and Account Penalty Policy

[Sigma-Astra]

Nowhere here did I dismiss your argument did I? You are insisting that I dismiss arguments even though I haven't. I suggest you take more time trying to understand and read rather than trying to paint anyone as the enemy.

If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

You weren't trying to dismiss my argument...? Yea, right....suuuuure. Again, take your own advice and read the context and tone of what you write before hitting enter. If you can't see the arrogance and rudeness of how you come off, then I don't know what else to tell you that Rosie didn't already point out ahead of time.

There is no paranoia spreading. He is asking for reasonable changes and making reasonable arguments. I think you and other people need to just stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation rather than just yelling "FEARMONGER! PARANOIA! ARGUMENT INVALID!" You're not contributing to the conversation, just trying to dismiss everything. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

There was nothing constructive about this post that anyone could take at face value to better themselves. The only thing that can be taken into context here is that you sounded way more offended and hostile than a normal person should be because there are other people who also think that some others are also blowing these changes out of proportion, and even going so far as to think that if they don't remain silent that they'll be banned on-site. The use of capslock comes off as somewhat childish and gives your entire tone within that statement rather brow beating, almost like you're talking down to people instead of talking to them. No one is going to take that comment alone as constructive and in fact, most would outright ignore it usually. When you're telling someone to stop posting towards the conversation based on your own feelings, you are trying to dismiss them from participating in the conversation because what they say doesn't align with what you think they should say. You're not trying to add any of your own ideas or to bounce off ideas, you're just flat out saying "No, you should stop saying this because I think that you're wrong and that's that. If you can't see my point of view, then don't speak at all". That's incredibly dismissive and is an attempt to shut off any further conversation or control the discussion into a direction that you want personally. You can't control how discussions go or happen.

My post merely pointed out that YOU contributed nothing to the conversation. There was no hostility in that. It was pointing out YOUR dismissiveness that is still VERY apparent. You just feel offended because I told you the truth of that. Offense can only be taken, not given. The only person who felt insulted here is you and it's pretty clear that you're the only one here with the intent to attack others. My post was constructive with the aim of getting real conversation going while your previous post was aimed at destroying any conversation that was ongoing. Just like this post you have right now where your just trying to insult me for pointing out exactly what you are doing.

Instead of poorly trying to flip my argument against me, you can choose to learn from your mistakes and grow. Your response to Freyt is a good start at trying to be constructive.

Pointing out who contributes what to the conversation doesn't mean you're actually contributing anything yourself, in fact, you're solely just nitpicking and looking to argue for the sake of arguing, and this is what most people would get from your context. And going by what Rosie has said earlier, now your posts are taking on a more arrogant and rude sort of tone. You're insisting that I do feel or should feel insulted which is wrong because you can't, nor will you ever know how I feel. You can't tell me that I'm offended or make assumptions that I am because you simply don't have that information readily accurate, you're not a mind reader. A person can hold a conversation without saying they're offended and none of my tone was used in an offensive manner like how you're making it out to be. In actuality, one could say that you're taking more offense towards it all than I am actually. And furthermore, thinking or calling you a hypocrite isn't an insult, it's an observation and if you're taking that sole word alone as an insult, then it would look like you're the one taking offense towards every little thing easily. As Rosie said earlier, this post just comes off as brow beating someone down with words until they accept that you're right and that's not a good way to debate because that tactic never works. It just makes the other person tune you out faster which is what I've been doing. Because, since you believed you were spouting the truth, you're not looking to bounce ideas or viewpoints between each other, you're just looking to be told that you're right in the first place. I'm sorry, that's not happening because I still think you're wrong and that's not going to change.

Read again
stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation = I encouraged you to come up with positive arguments

Again, you are not wanting to listen and only choosing what you want to hear. I assume because you don't want to be wrong.

But very well, I guess our conversation can end here seeing as how you don't want to reach a fruitful understanding.

I don't need to read again because everything that I've read from you is construed with an arrogant and rude tone. So no, we won't reach a fruitful understanding because you don't want to accept other people's views other than your own. You just want to be told that you're right and nothing else.

So yea, I'm just going to ignore you outright since you're not worth getting a forum ban over.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

You weren't trying to dismiss my argument...? Yea, right....suuuuure. Again, take your own advice and read the context and tone of what you write before hitting enter.

I'm just going to ignore you outright since you're not worth getting a forum ban over.

Read again
stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation = I encouraged you to come up with positive arguments

Again, you are not wanting to listen and only choosing what you want to hear. I assume because you don't want to be wrong.

But very well, I guess our conversation can end here seeing as how you don't want to reach a fruitful understanding.

Edit: It seems like you edited your post after you said you would ignore me and added more to it. I guess in the end, you couldn't keep your word on that. Whether that be your anger talking or you wanting to get the last word in. Please decide if you want to continue the conversation or not.

[Emmanellain]

I find it amusing that these rules treat their average player as if they're a babbling 10-year-old that needs directing in how to think, act and talk in game.
I've played MMO's since I was a but a kid, and some of these new ToS just strike me as odd considering FFXIV has since its launch in 2013 had the healthiest and most mature player base I have encountered across multiple MMOS (Server wise Balmung might be the only exception but it was still bearable)

Stalking, death threats and continuous harassment stretching over a period of time across content should be punishable by a GM, that I agree. (By period-of-time I mean if a dude from a duty continues to hail down profanities at you after you leave the duty and follows you around, or eggs friends on you etc. cause with the cross server travelling this will now be possible.)
But Christ once you start wasting money on moderating kindergarten arguments and speech among your own player base and enable people to play "gotcha!" report-tag then we start to see a problem.
I do not understand why SE decided to waste money on moderating petty arguments, edgy opinions and speech instead of announcing to their player base. “we expect you to conduct yourselves as adults and use common decency. Fraud, Stalking, Unfitting behavior against minors, obstruction of play, and RMT spamming is prohibited and will result in a ban.” Etc.

You know, actual serious actions that can be damaging to other players and the game itself, not some edge lord yelling “build the wall” in /party chat to troll. Its very simple, just ignore it or teleport out of the area, or leave the party etc. Do not engage. Act like an adult instead of running crying to a GM because the sight of an opposing opinion or view burned your eyeballs.

I have played consistently since 2013, and have been “gotcha!” reported twice, one instance was when I met a fellow Scandinavian in a dungeon, and we started joking about our neighboring country Sweden. The conversation was harmless, but an American party member decided to be offended on behalf of all Swedes and told us she had reported us as we appeared to be "generalizing a country".
Had these new rules been implemented upon launch of this MMO, I could have been temporarily suspended for joking about Swedes getting fines for washing their own cars in their own private driveways. Because a third party did not understand a playful push and pull conversation between Europeans.

The second time was during the last round of Omega, someone from Balmung kept going on about how Omega is trans, where I piped in: “I see no transition, Omega is even gendered with F/M during the battle, clearly indicating its one gender at a time except when they split.” The player reported me for being “transphobic” by the new rules I would most likely have been permanently banned. Five years of progress on my character almost lost because someone had an opposing viewpoint, that I find very worrisome.
You have players from across the world in this game, and some may have opposing values and views from a GM based in Seattle, or California. It’s in the cultural clash and different exchange of ideas we grow as people, and giving the players an option to go report one another for these differences you’re initiating a really expensive and tiresome moderating process that is to the detriment of your game.

[WaterShield]

-snip-

I don't need to read again because everything that I've read from you is construed with an arrogant and rude tone. So no, we won't reach a fruitful understand because you don't want to accept other people's views other than your own. You just want to be told that you're right and nothing else.

So yea, I'm just going to ignore you outright since you're not worth getting a forum ban over.

Honestly I find your response to this to be offensive. It appears to be emotionally charged and actively aggressive. Isn't the point you're arguing say that what you just did is wrong in general and according to the rules?

The bold contains extreme irony. I've been following this thread since day one. I've read every post here. It seems to me the ones who "Just want to be told that you're right and nothing else" are the people making the assumption that nothing is going to change with these rules, or that it will be minor and will not hurt "nice people". Now, that is not to say that everyone on your side is guilty of this. I have seen much more of it from that side though.

Is it so wrong to ask for clarification on the rules and then give reasons as to why we think it is needed?

[Sigma-Astra]

Honestly I find your response to this to be offensive. It appears to be emotionally charged and actively aggressive. Isn't the point your arguing to say that what you just did is wrong in general and according to the rules?

Offensive how...? I'm stating that I am done discussing things with a certain individual because all of their posts come off in tones that are either rude or arrogant. I would rather not risk my main forum account getting banned because he/she can't seem to get that how they word things or how it comes off is leaning more towards offense than they realize. It's not an insult, but an observation and the person in question probably doesn't need other people to feel offended for them.

Not all words need to be seen as aggressive and reading the tone and context of something is extremely important.

Also, if you were following the whole thread, then you would have seen my other posts in regards towards Freyt where we actually have a conversation going on and wevare bouncing off two opposing perspectives. The same could not be said with that other user. It's not wrong to ask for clarification in regards towards the rules, but it's also not wrong to say that some people are blowing this out of the water either. It's just not healthy to play the game with a mindset that everyone is out to get you if you speak, but like I said, the rules were vague before and we were just fine then.

Also, apologies if things need to be cut short here, work and typing on a smartphone can get pretty tiresome.

[WaterShield]

Offensive how...? I'm stating that I'm done discussing things with a certain individual because all of their posts come off in tone as either rude or arrogant. I would rather not risk my account getting banned because he/she can't seem to get how they word things or how it comes off. It's not an insult but an observation and the person in question probably doesn't need other people to feel offended for them.

Not all words need to be seen as aggressive and reading the tone and context of something is extremely important.

Also, if you following the whole thread, then you would have seen my other posts to Freyt. It's not wrong to ask for clarification, but it's also not wrong to say that some are blowing this out of the water either. It's just not healthy to play the game with a mindset that everyone is out to get you if you speak, but like I said, the rules were vague before and we were fine then.

Apologies if things need to be cut short here, work and typing on s phone can get pretty tiresome.

I am reading it and taking in both the tone and the context. I find it to contain aggressive language due to that. It reads as hostile.

I considered it relevant to the discussion at hand to point this out, as I would consider it a violation of the rules as written.

To further respond to the added parts of this response, I did see them all. I found most of your responses rude. As to your opinion on things being blown out the water. I disagree, though I maintain that your opinion is valid. I'm simply taking issue with how you chose to communicate it given the rules.

This whole situation ties in neatly with the request for more clarification on the new rules. That is all.

[Sigma-Astra]

I am reading it and taking in both the tone and the context. I find it to contain aggressive language due to that. It reads as hostile.

I considered it relevant to the discussion at hand to point this out, as I would consider it a violation of the rules as written.

To further respond to the added parts of this response, I did see them all. I found most of your responses rude. As to your opinion on things being blown out the water. I disagree, though I maintain that your opinion is valid. I'm simply taking issue with how you chose to communicate it given the rules.

This whole situation ties in neatly with the request for more clarification on the new rules. That is all.

And I take issue with how the other person communicated their responses, which myself and another user, StarRosies, found just as rude and belittling. If you're going to chide one side of the spectrum, then you can't excuse the other person for their behavior simply because you have simply shown a bias towards that side of the field. His tone came off as rude and hostile, whether they meant it or not towards me is unsure, and Rosie caught that as well.

I'm not going to feel bad or apologize for stating an unpopular opinion, and then become ganged up on that opinion alone simply because a few people don't like hearing it. Especially, when I didn't use any terrible name-calling, shaming, bad memes, trigger words, trolling, etc... towards that aggressive individual.

[WaterShield]

And I take issue with how the other person communicated which myself and another found just as rude. If you're going to chide one side of the spectrum, then you can't excuse the other person for their behavior simply because you have shown a bias towards that side. His tone came off as rude and hostile, whether they meant it or not towards me is unsure, and Rosie caught that as well.

I'm not going to feel bad or apologize for stating an unpopular opinion and then getting ganged up on it because a few people dont like hearing it when I didn't use name calling whatsoever or memes to try and make a point.

I never said I was excusing anyone for anything now did I? You were the more prudent person to make the point with given your stance. I'm sorry if you thought that my responses were in some way personal. They were never meant to do anything other than make a point contributing to the discussion at hand.

I never suggested you should feel bad nor asked for an apology. I also do not believe I used any meme's?

I would like to draw specific attention to one thing you stated though. The bold statement. Everyone has a bias of some sort. I and many others are concerned the new rules leave too much room for personal bias to be abused.

[Sigma-Astra]

I never said I was excusing anyone for anything now did I? You were the more prudent person to make the point with given your stance. I'm sorry if you thought that my responses were in some way personal. They were never meant to do anything other than make a point contributing to the discussion at hand.

I never suggested you should feel bad nor asked for an apology. I also do not believe I used any meme's?

No, you never said explicitly that you were taking their side, but you didn't have to. Your wording and tone implied that you saw them as doing nothing wrong because you didn't point out that their tone wasn't any better and after clarifying that you've been following the topic firsthand to the finest detail, you immediately use mine as your only example in claiming that it came off as aggressive while completely never mentioning and ignoring what comment started everything in the first place. It's only natural for someone to take that as the wrong way when your wording doesn't imply that anyone with a strong tone might be wrong. No one likes being singled out and used as the guinea pig. So, what I'm mostly getting at is that you shouldn't single out one person for what you find is rude (I'm still not sure how, perhaps people similar to you or like minded aren't just used to someone being blunt), and then completely ignore the other side either.

As for feeling bad or the need for an apology, again, you didn't have to directly suggest it. Your tone and context implied it since you found most of my general responses rude, aggressive, or hostile in your eyes, to which I added as a clarification, that I wasn't going to feel bad or apologize about it because they weren't. They were just blunt, though, not everyone appreciates someone being honest and blunt. You even went further to say that you found my posts relevant because they were close or were a violation towards the current rules. I'm not sure how else you wanted anyone to take that line other than the viewpoint of someone looking to find offense in something that was never offensive to begin with or a subtle personal attack.

I would deem posts overly aggressive and offensive if there was a lot capslock involved, shouting, name-calling, buzz words, memes, slurs, etc...and since I never used anything like that of the sort, I believe a lot of people are taking bluntness and words not being honeyed as offensive and aggressive for no reason.

Ah, thanks for being patient for a non-smartphone response.