Regarding the Revision of the Prohibited Activities and Account Penalty Policy

[Sigma-Astra]

There is no paranoia spreading. He is asking for reasonable changes and making reasonable arguments. I think you and other people need to just stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation rather than just yelling "FEARMONGER! PARANOIA! ARGUMENT INVALID!" You're not contributing to the conversation, just trying to dismiss everything. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

In light of what you just said, then you should probably start following your own advice as your post contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation and is incredibly belittling and hostile sounding for no reason. If you have nothing to add other than being a smart mouth towards the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it. I bet when your own words are turned around, it doesn't feel nice does it? Don't be a hypocrite about things, please.

The entire reason we're here is because things that weren't punished before will be punished now, and we don't have a clear enough picture of what that actually entails. It's entirely possible that amidst a discussion about the game, you called someones idea "stupid", and they reported you. That would normally be seen as "Negative, but not severe enough to take action." Precisely like what these changes are designed to focus on, said so by Foxclon himself, aka the man who sits beside Yoshida in most of the live letters. And even if you were to trust his judgement, who's to say that his judgement is reflected in each and every GM?

A number of people are dismissing our opinions outright without consideration, describing it as "panic inducing" among other things. No one here seems to think that the sky is falling, or that it will fall if someone gets banned unfairly. No one here seems to be trying to communicate that, either. I propose that many here who are using the term "panic" have an unfair definition of the term itself. Same with "fear mongering".

In a world as varied as ours people are bound to disagree. Ironically this discussion centers around a set of rules that includes a rule to not dismiss another's opinion. I find myself defending that notion, not as a rule, but as an ideal. Surely if you all tackle the discussion with consideration rather than rejection fueled by pre-formed opinions, you'll come out as better people than you were before.

And the rules prior regarding the ToS before the changes were just as vague as beforehand, but a lot of people probably didn't bother to ACTUALLY read them the first time and just clicked the "Yes, I agree" so they could get towards playing the game faster. They literally took the the rules that they already had beforehand that were still vague mind you, tweaked them a little bit, and yet somehow they're still just as vague as they were before. This will blow over in a few weeks.

The only reason people are suddenly worried about the rules now is because they actually made it a Lodestone topic, and that got people to actually read parts of the ToS in more detail instead of just agreeing towards everything blindly in the beginning.

As someone else had said prior, they made these changes to remind people that the ToS does in fact exist and perhaps SE is tired of people ignoring it and acting out against it while creating a toxic environment for other players across all three regions. We don't know how many report tickets get sent in on a daily basis before the ToS revision. Perhaps it was a lot, and so they're hoping that these new changes will curb it.

At the same time, I can understand why the rules need a certain amount of vagueness simply because these are rules that must address the conduct of players from all three different regions with tons, TONS of language barriers. What one country may find offensive, another may not, and so on and so forth.

The rules are probably left vague because it would be either too wordy or impossible to convey all of the types of social culture from different countries, their own morals, behaviors, and how to enforce it without upsetting one region over the other.

For example, "the Japanese players have a different set of rules than we do! That's not fair!". It's left vague for fairness and ambiguity for the GM's more than likely and for SE to have a neutral stance, or at least "appear" to have one in regards to how they enforce players from all three regions: never favoring one over the other in terms of the ToS.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

In light of what you just said, then you should probably start following your own advice as your post contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation and is incredibly belittling and hostile sounding for no reason. If you have nothing to add other than being a smart mouth towards the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it. I bet when your own words are turned around, it doesn't feel nice does it? Don't be a hypocrite about things, please.



And the rules prior regarding the ToS before the changes were just as vague as beforehand, but a lot of people probably didn't bother to ACTUALLY read them the first time and just clicked the "Yes, I agree" so they could get towards playing the game faster. They literally took the the rules that they already had beforehand that were still vague mind you, tweaked them a little bit, and yet somehow they're still just as vague as they were before. This will blow over in a few weeks.

The only reason people are suddenly worried about the rules now is because they actually made it a Lodestone topic, and that got people to actually read parts of the ToS in more detail instead of just agreeing towards everything blindly in the beginning.

As someone else had said prior, they made these changes to remind people that the ToS does in fact exist and perhaps SE is tired of people ignoring it and acting out against it while creating a toxic environment for other players across all three regions. We don't know how many report tickets get sent in on a daily basis before the ToS revision. Perhaps it was a lot, and so they're hoping that these new changes will curb it.

My post merely pointed out that YOU contributed nothing to the conversation. There was no hostility in that. It was pointing out YOUR dismissiveness that is still VERY apparent. You just feel offended because I told you the truth of that. Offense can only be taken, not given. The only person who felt insulted here is you and it's pretty clear that you're the only one here with the intent to attack others. My post was constructive with the aim of getting real conversation going while your previous post was aimed at destroying any conversation that was ongoing. Just like this post you have right now where your just trying to insult me for pointing out exactly what you are doing.

Instead of poorly trying to flip my argument against me, you can choose to learn from your mistakes and grow. Your response to Freyt is a good start at trying to be constructive.

[Sigma-Astra]

My post merely pointed out that YOU contributed nothing to the conversation. There was no hostility in that. It was pointing out YOUR dismissiveness that is still VERY apparent. You just feel offended because I told you the truth of that. Offense can only be taken, not given. The only person who felt insulted here is you and it's pretty clear that you're the only one here with the intent to attack others. My post was constructive with the aim of getting real conversation going while your previous post was aimed at destroying any conversation that was ongoing. Just like this post you have right now where your just trying to insult me for pointing out exactly what you are doing.

Instead of poorly trying to flip my argument against me, you can choose to learn from your mistakes and grow. Your response to Freyt is a good start at trying to be constructive.

And here you are still trying to be dismissive of someone else's opinion because it doesn't mesh with your own. Your post was no where near being constructive, Freyt was, but yours was not and added nothing to the debate other than you wanting to make sure your misguided anger got heard. Nothing more or nothing less than that. You offered no form of an idea other than "stop having an opinion that I don't like". I can't feel offended over someone throwing a tantrum with capslock and no, you didn't tell me the truth of anything. All you did was basically stand on a soapbox with a shaky foundation and shake your fist that other people aren't allow to say certain things. You can't police language and it seems like, overall, you're the one who took offense towards what I said in the first place. There was plenty hostility in your post because context does matter and so does the tone of what someone writes.

Again, stop lecturing others for doing something while being a hypocrite at it yourself. You haven't contributed anything so far other than trying to get an argument out of me. And, like it or not, but it doesn't matter how much you scream that my opinion offers nothing, it does because everyone is entitled towards having one and one's own opinion is no more invalid than the next. It offers nothing to you and that's fine, but it still offers something to the conversation, and no matter how hard you want it to be otherwise, you can't magically wish that away.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

And here you are still trying to be dismissive of someone else's opinion because it doesn't mesh with your own. Your post was no where near being constructive, Freyt was, but your's was not and added nothing to the debate other than you wanting to make sure your misguided anger got heard. Nothing more or nothing less than that. You offered no form of an idea other than "stop having an opinion that I don't like".

Again, stop lecturing others for doing something while being a hypocrite at it yourself. You haven't contributed anything so far other than trying to get an argument out of me. And, like it or not, but it doesn't matter how much you scream that my opinion offers nothing, it does because everyone is entitled towards having one and one's own opinion is more invalid than the next. It offers nothing to you and that's fine, but it still offers something to the conversation, and no matter how hard you want it to be otherwise, you can't.

Have you noticed a trend in your arguments? All you're doing is taking my words and throwing them back at me and trying to make up reasons to justify your points. No, my posts aren't filled with anger but yours very clearly is.

For what is 'constructive' I told you to stop dismissing arguments and start taking a more constructive stance. This meant that I was trying to make the conversations taking place more productive and thus that make what I said to you constructive. You wanting to end arguments because you don't like what others are saying is not constructive. There is nothing hypocritical about it even though you wish it to be so.

But lets go back here

I think you and other people need to just stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation rather than just yelling "FEARMONGER! PARANOIA! ARGUMENT INVALID!" You're not contributing to the conversation, just trying to dismiss everything. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

Nowhere here did I dismiss your argument did I? I just told you that you need to provide a constructive argument rather than dismissing people and suggested that if you had nothing to add then don't add it. You are insisting that I dismiss arguments even though I haven't. I suggest you take more time trying to understand and read rather than trying to paint anyone as the enemy.

[Sigma-Astra]

Nowhere here did I dismiss your argument did I? You are insisting that I dismiss arguments even though I haven't. I suggest you take more time trying to understand and read rather than trying to paint anyone as the enemy.

If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

You weren't trying to dismiss my argument...? Yea, right....suuuuure. Again, take your own advice and read the context and tone of what you write before hitting enter. If you can't see the arrogance and rudeness of how you come off, then I don't know what else to tell you that Rosie didn't already point out ahead of time.

There is no paranoia spreading. He is asking for reasonable changes and making reasonable arguments. I think you and other people need to just stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation rather than just yelling "FEARMONGER! PARANOIA! ARGUMENT INVALID!" You're not contributing to the conversation, just trying to dismiss everything. If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then don't insert yourself pointlessly into it to end it.

There was nothing constructive about this post that anyone could take at face value to better themselves. The only thing that can be taken into context here is that you sounded way more offended and hostile than a normal person should be because there are other people who also think that some others are also blowing these changes out of proportion, and even going so far as to think that if they don't remain silent that they'll be banned on-site. The use of capslock comes off as somewhat childish and gives your entire tone within that statement rather brow beating, almost like you're talking down to people instead of talking to them. No one is going to take that comment alone as constructive and in fact, most would outright ignore it usually. When you're telling someone to stop posting towards the conversation based on your own feelings, you are trying to dismiss them from participating in the conversation because what they say doesn't align with what you think they should say. You're not trying to add any of your own ideas or to bounce off ideas, you're just flat out saying "No, you should stop saying this because I think that you're wrong and that's that. If you can't see my point of view, then don't speak at all". That's incredibly dismissive and is an attempt to shut off any further conversation or control the discussion into a direction that you want personally. You can't control how discussions go or happen.

My post merely pointed out that YOU contributed nothing to the conversation. There was no hostility in that. It was pointing out YOUR dismissiveness that is still VERY apparent. You just feel offended because I told you the truth of that. Offense can only be taken, not given. The only person who felt insulted here is you and it's pretty clear that you're the only one here with the intent to attack others. My post was constructive with the aim of getting real conversation going while your previous post was aimed at destroying any conversation that was ongoing. Just like this post you have right now where your just trying to insult me for pointing out exactly what you are doing.

Instead of poorly trying to flip my argument against me, you can choose to learn from your mistakes and grow. Your response to Freyt is a good start at trying to be constructive.

Pointing out who contributes what to the conversation doesn't mean you're actually contributing anything yourself, in fact, you're solely just nitpicking and looking to argue for the sake of arguing, and this is what most people would get from your context. And going by what Rosie has said earlier, now your posts are taking on a more arrogant and rude sort of tone. You're insisting that I do feel or should feel insulted which is wrong because you can't, nor will you ever know how I feel. You can't tell me that I'm offended or make assumptions that I am because you simply don't have that information readily accurate, you're not a mind reader. A person can hold a conversation without saying they're offended and none of my tone was used in an offensive manner like how you're making it out to be. In actuality, one could say that you're taking more offense towards it all than I am actually. And furthermore, thinking or calling you a hypocrite isn't an insult, it's an observation and if you're taking that sole word alone as an insult, then it would look like you're the one taking offense towards every little thing easily. As Rosie said earlier, this post just comes off as brow beating someone down with words until they accept that you're right and that's not a good way to debate because that tactic never works. It just makes the other person tune you out faster which is what I've been doing. Because, since you believed you were spouting the truth, you're not looking to bounce ideas or viewpoints between each other, you're just looking to be told that you're right in the first place. I'm sorry, that's not happening because I still think you're wrong and that's not going to change.

Read again
stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation = I encouraged you to come up with positive arguments

Again, you are not wanting to listen and only choosing what you want to hear. I assume because you don't want to be wrong.

But very well, I guess our conversation can end here seeing as how you don't want to reach a fruitful understanding.

I don't need to read again because everything that I've read from you is construed with an arrogant and rude tone. So no, we won't reach a fruitful understanding because you don't want to accept other people's views other than your own. You just want to be told that you're right and nothing else.

So yea, I'm just going to ignore you outright since you're not worth getting a forum ban over.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

You weren't trying to dismiss my argument...? Yea, right....suuuuure. Again, take your own advice and read the context and tone of what you write before hitting enter.

I'm just going to ignore you outright since you're not worth getting a forum ban over.

Read again
stop belittling everyone with an opposing view and actually provide constructive conversation = I encouraged you to come up with positive arguments

Again, you are not wanting to listen and only choosing what you want to hear. I assume because you don't want to be wrong.

But very well, I guess our conversation can end here seeing as how you don't want to reach a fruitful understanding.

Edit: It seems like you edited your post after you said you would ignore me and added more to it. I guess in the end, you couldn't keep your word on that. Whether that be your anger talking or you wanting to get the last word in. Please decide if you want to continue the conversation or not.

[Emmanellain]

I find it amusing that these rules treat their average player as if they're a babbling 10-year-old that needs directing in how to think, act and talk in game.
I've played MMO's since I was a but a kid, and some of these new ToS just strike me as odd considering FFXIV has since its launch in 2013 had the healthiest and most mature player base I have encountered across multiple MMOS (Server wise Balmung might be the only exception but it was still bearable)

Stalking, death threats and continuous harassment stretching over a period of time across content should be punishable by a GM, that I agree. (By period-of-time I mean if a dude from a duty continues to hail down profanities at you after you leave the duty and follows you around, or eggs friends on you etc. cause with the cross server travelling this will now be possible.)
But Christ once you start wasting money on moderating kindergarten arguments and speech among your own player base and enable people to play "gotcha!" report-tag then we start to see a problem.
I do not understand why SE decided to waste money on moderating petty arguments, edgy opinions and speech instead of announcing to their player base. “we expect you to conduct yourselves as adults and use common decency. Fraud, Stalking, Unfitting behavior against minors, obstruction of play, and RMT spamming is prohibited and will result in a ban.” Etc.

You know, actual serious actions that can be damaging to other players and the game itself, not some edge lord yelling “build the wall” in /party chat to troll. Its very simple, just ignore it or teleport out of the area, or leave the party etc. Do not engage. Act like an adult instead of running crying to a GM because the sight of an opposing opinion or view burned your eyeballs.

I have played consistently since 2013, and have been “gotcha!” reported twice, one instance was when I met a fellow Scandinavian in a dungeon, and we started joking about our neighboring country Sweden. The conversation was harmless, but an American party member decided to be offended on behalf of all Swedes and told us she had reported us as we appeared to be "generalizing a country".
Had these new rules been implemented upon launch of this MMO, I could have been temporarily suspended for joking about Swedes getting fines for washing their own cars in their own private driveways. Because a third party did not understand a playful push and pull conversation between Europeans.

The second time was during the last round of Omega, someone from Balmung kept going on about how Omega is trans, where I piped in: “I see no transition, Omega is even gendered with F/M during the battle, clearly indicating its one gender at a time except when they split.” The player reported me for being “transphobic” by the new rules I would most likely have been permanently banned. Five years of progress on my character almost lost because someone had an opposing viewpoint, that I find very worrisome.
You have players from across the world in this game, and some may have opposing values and views from a GM based in Seattle, or California. It’s in the cultural clash and different exchange of ideas we grow as people, and giving the players an option to go report one another for these differences you’re initiating a really expensive and tiresome moderating process that is to the detriment of your game.

[WaterShield]

-snip-

I don't need to read again because everything that I've read from you is construed with an arrogant and rude tone. So no, we won't reach a fruitful understand because you don't want to accept other people's views other than your own. You just want to be told that you're right and nothing else.

So yea, I'm just going to ignore you outright since you're not worth getting a forum ban over.

Honestly I find your response to this to be offensive. It appears to be emotionally charged and actively aggressive. Isn't the point you're arguing say that what you just did is wrong in general and according to the rules?

The bold contains extreme irony. I've been following this thread since day one. I've read every post here. It seems to me the ones who "Just want to be told that you're right and nothing else" are the people making the assumption that nothing is going to change with these rules, or that it will be minor and will not hurt "nice people". Now, that is not to say that everyone on your side is guilty of this. I have seen much more of it from that side though.

Is it so wrong to ask for clarification on the rules and then give reasons as to why we think it is needed?

[Sigma-Astra]

Honestly I find your response to this to be offensive. It appears to be emotionally charged and actively aggressive. Isn't the point your arguing to say that what you just did is wrong in general and according to the rules?

Offensive how...? I'm stating that I am done discussing things with a certain individual because all of their posts come off in tones that are either rude or arrogant. I would rather not risk my main forum account getting banned because he/she can't seem to get that how they word things or how it comes off is leaning more towards offense than they realize. It's not an insult, but an observation and the person in question probably doesn't need other people to feel offended for them.

Not all words need to be seen as aggressive and reading the tone and context of something is extremely important.

Also, if you were following the whole thread, then you would have seen my other posts in regards towards Freyt where we actually have a conversation going on and wevare bouncing off two opposing perspectives. The same could not be said with that other user. It's not wrong to ask for clarification in regards towards the rules, but it's also not wrong to say that some people are blowing this out of the water either. It's just not healthy to play the game with a mindset that everyone is out to get you if you speak, but like I said, the rules were vague before and we were just fine then.

Also, apologies if things need to be cut short here, work and typing on a smartphone can get pretty tiresome.

[StarRosie]

-snip-

I'm sorry to butt in here but I think a different set of eyes would allow a broader perspective. While I'm sure your heart was in the right place with your post and what you were trying to convey, your post did come off aggressive and even like you were brow beating Sigma. There wasn't much I would consider constructive and it came off far more as if you are talking down to people. This is again my perspective but I think maybe dialing back the 'real talk, I just say it as it is.' attitude would go a long way in coming off more constructive rather then arrogant. I would also say that this post is also coming off in a similar vein, from telling people how they are feeling to insisting you are just telling the truth and that the truth somehow offended Sigma. This whole thing just comes off as incredibly arrogant and rude. Again, while I'm sure your heart is in the right place, the execution is less then stellar.

But again, this is merely my perspective, do with it what you please.

-snip-

I think you are missing what I am trying to say. I agree that it could happen, there is no argument there. The rules are rather broad and could hurt the more innocent part of the player base. But it is the insistence that it could happen therefore it will, is where you lose me. I am not saying it will never happen, I'm saying that I think people are over stating the ramifications and possible outcome, while also putting a little too much into the "It will happen" bucket.

Again, to clarify. I agree that it could happen, and we need to voice our concerns clearly. However I don't think it will be to the level some have been billing it as. I am also not saying it will never happen.

Anyways, I'm going to bow out here, because I think we're just going to ultimately argue around each other and I have to be up for wok in 6ish hours. So, I'm gonna hit the hay, and we'll see where things land tomorrow. Have a lovely evening and please understand, I bear no ill will or anything like that towards you and others arguing similar to you. I just mildly disagree with some points. Anyways, I'm rambling. Take care.