New ToS gives hope for official DPS meters?

[AleXwern]

Now you're equating the quality of a person with the quality of their parses? Maybe you didn't mean that the way it sounded.

To answer your question though, the parser is clearly being used as an exclusionary tool rather than a tool for self-improvement. It's really defeating the purpose of playing an MMO in my opinion. And it doesn't seem like people are necessarily using it to only weed out the below average. It seems more like people are using it to weed out anyone who isn't top tier.

But you know to the other person's comments about baddies wanting to be carried I posit this: If one is only willing to ever run with who they deem to be the best of the best then perhaps it is they who wish to be carried? Just a thought.

Yes, I am going to use it to exclude people. If a grey/hidden SAM joins my weekly clear party, what should I do? I can clearly see he's underperforming or he's hiding something and there's risk he can single handedly stop entire group's progress (wouldn't be first nor last time). Not kick him because "it's MMO"? Even without parsers you'd just go in, wipe and then kick. It'll just save 10 minutes for everyone in reality.
Inb4 "help him perform better": it's a weekly clear and you are supposed to know your class and encounter by then. Go whack a dummy and read a guide.

Unless it's specifically logrun group, nobody expects to run with the absolute best. The truth is that people want to clear and be done with whatever they are doing as smoothly and fast as possible. Competent may not be perfect, not even close, but underperforming people are not even competent (-> gray and hidden people 99% of time. Blue already shows some promise in my eyes and someone I wouldn't kick right away). If I and 6 other people want to clear something, why should we tolerate someone who's clearly not up to the task? Why should we tolerate 1 person wasting 7 others' time?
Also what is that point about wanting to be carried? because I want to play with people with similar skill levels as myself means I want to be carried myself? What? I Just don't want to carry anyone, how is that hard to understand. They should do their job and I mine, not that I do their and mine.

[JackHatchet]

I would be ok with zero parsers if they removed enrage timers. I don't mind a fight taking 5 minutes longer. I just don't want someone's poor dps to actually wipe me.

[Camiie]

People sure have gotten real defensive all of a sudden.

[KaivaC]

People sure have gotten real defensive all of a sudden.

No, people are just calling you out because you don't know what all you are talking about.

[AleXwern]

People sure have gotten real defensive all of a sudden.

You are telling it's wrong to exclude people based on their performance in a content all about performance and people who don't want to carry people are bad, and now you are telling people making arguments against you are just defensive? Again: what?

[Camiie]

You're right. I shouldn't have made that last post. It didn't add anything to the discussion and was just snide and snarky. I honestly apologize. Now, I can't promise I won't be offensive again, but I can promise a response of better quality.

The feeling I'm getting from those who are pro-parser is that people want their accomplishments in game (accomplishments I do laud by the way) to give them something beyond gear, vanity items, titles, and achievements. What I feel like people really want for their trouble is authority over other players. They want a hierarchy, obviously with themselves at the head of it, and an easy means for those who aren't in their caste to be easily cast aside. Not to say that people can't ever move up, but it just won't be on their watch or on their valuable time. They can do that on someone else's time, assuming everyone else doesn't take the same tack of course. Self-improvement seems to be more of an excuse or a secondary benefit than the real reason behind it all, especially considering the public disclosure of data.

If any of what I'm feeling here is even remotely true, then I can see why SE would want nothing to do with the idea, especially since the dev team hails from what's purported to be a generally cooperative culture and runs a game that's meant to be a cooperative experience. Now I know that one could say that "baddies" aren't cooperative because they don't contribute enough, but I get the idea that's not how SE sees it and that they'd prefer us as a community to work to lift each other up rather than go out of our way with third party tools to hold others down. Maybe not, but I'm certainly of that line of thinking and I still see no reason to think otherwise. If that means putting up with wipes and abandoned duties then I will accept that consequence. Just like life you win some and you lose some. You find time well spent and you find time wasted. It's a game. You can't always expect to win. It would be kind of dull if we did, wouldn't it?

Oh well, even if it often seemed otherwise I do appreciate the discussion and I truly appreciate what so many of you are able to accomplish in game that I'm often afraid to even try. Hopefully I haven't burned all the bridges, but since I just spoke about accepting consequences I have to accept that one as well.

[AxlStream]

I would be ok with zero parsers if they removed enrage timers. I don't mind a fight taking 5 minutes longer. I just don't want someone's poor dps to actually wipe me.

Then you remove the point of the harder encounters. The EX and Savage fights are more about "Okay do this fight's mechanics WHILE doing this amount of damage as a group". Without those timers, nothing stops us from going 7 tanks 1 heals on the regular instead of silly meme comps.

[KaivaC]

You're right. I shouldn't have made that last post. It didn't add anything to the discussion and was just snide and snarky. I honestly apologize. Now, I can't promise I won't be offensive again, but I can promise a response of better quality.

The feeling I'm getting from those who are pro-parser is that people want their accomplishments in game (accomplishments I do laud by the way) to give them something beyond gear, vanity items, titles, and achievements. What I feel like people really want for their trouble is authority over other players. They want a hierarchy, obviously with themselves at the head of it, and an easy means for those who aren't in their caste to be easily cast aside. Not to say that people can't ever move up, but it just won't be on their watch or on their valuable time. They can do that on someone else's time, assuming everyone else doesn't take the same tack of course. Self-improvement seems to be more of an excuse or a secondary benefit than the real reason behind it all, especially considering the public disclosure of data.

If any of what I'm feeling here is even remotely true, then I can see why SE would want nothing to do with the idea, especially since the dev team hails from what's purported to be a generally cooperative culture and runs a game that's meant to be a cooperative experience. Now I know that one could say that "baddies" aren't cooperative because they don't contribute enough, but I get the idea that's not how SE sees it and that they'd prefer us as a community to work to lift each other up rather than go out of our way with third party tools to hold others down. Maybe not, but I'm certainly of that line of thinking and I still see no reason to think otherwise. If that means putting up with wipes and abandoned duties then I will accept that consequence. Just like life you win some and you lose some. You find time well spent and you find time wasted. It's a game. You can't always expect to win. It would be kind of dull if we did, wouldn't it?

Oh well, even if it often seemed otherwise I do appreciate the discussion and I truly appreciate what so many of you are able to accomplish in game that I'm often afraid to even try. Hopefully I haven't burned all the bridges, but since I just spoke about accepting consequences I have to accept that one as well.

If that is what you think, then you have completely missed any and every point made thus far. Authority over players? See, now at this point, you are starting to portray pro-parsers as elitists, which is somehow even more insulting than what you have been saying so far. Has nothing with do with authority. Is it seriously that elitist to expect at least average play in a Savage run, where you do need to actually pull your weight? How are you going to apologize, and then go right back to insulting people, eh?

[Zer0]

The only reason I'm against parsers is that in every other game it's been used I've been kicked in non-relevant content for low dps. As in leveling dungeons, or other non-high-end content.

The current state of parsers is quite fine. It's used basically in only the content it's relevant in, high-end content. And used almost exclusively by static parties. My opinion is that if you're not in a static party working on high-end content parsers don't need to be used at all.

The last thing I want is try hards kicking tanks in MSQ because of "low dps" when the role they're specifically in doesn't rely on damage in all but high-end content. Same applies to healers, you can say what you will and use that stupid level 10 Conj quest as "proof" but their role doesn't require any damage output at all in group based content outside the high-end EX and Savage content. As all but those content regular dps roles alone will provide sufficient damage to meet requirements.

[Seddrinth]

So basically a streamer got harrassed on a streaming plattform? Nothing new and honestly no reason to not allow parsers. Most streamers get targeted BECAUSE they are streaming and because some people feel cool if they can troll around in live streams.

I know right? So a streamer got harassed that's more reason to ban parsing? Then why don't SE ban streaming as well?