New ToS gives hope for official DPS meters?

[geekgirl101]

So serious question, do people only think parsers are toxic,because you can see other players damage? Is that the main reason?

From what I've experienced in other games parsers are both a good and bad thing. They help you see who needs improvement whether it's via gear or via their strategy. It helps to determine whether or not you are capable of defeating a boss before hitting an enrage timer and if maybe you might have to go back to some more easier content for gearing up or for practicing playing new rotations.

However it can breed toxicity where people judge harshly for not reaching specific numbers and may even throw you out of the group in favour of someone else who can do better than you. It can encourage people into playing only the job that does the highest dps on parsers just so they can boast about who does more dps and belittle everybody else. It can cause recklessness where people only care about their personal dps even if it jeopardizes the rest of the party and causes the overall party dps to drop.

In the end it's not the tool that's bad but the manner in which it is used and is an extension to elitist behaviour.

[LaylaTsarra]

My biggest question is, if parsing is only for the benefit of those parsing then why are the results posted online for public viewing?

Public viewing allows people to exclude users from groups based on their numbers.

[Penthea]

My biggest question is, if parsing is only for the benefit of those parsing then why are the results posted online for public viewing?

This is actually a really good point.

You can upload logs privately but as far as I know you don't get ranked for private uploads. People want to get ranked to compare themselves to other players, and to compare themselves to their own older logs. And well some just want a high rank to show off to others.

Rankings are actually not necessary to see if someone performs well or not. You can simply look at their hps/dps numbers to see how good their output is. So if SE made their own parser and their own version of FFLogs, they could remove rankings without making players lose the ability to compare logs.

But rankings matter a lot to some people so I think there would be backlash if SE announced a parser and a log tool but no rankings.

And before some people say those who upload private logs have bad performance to hide, this is not true. In WoW competitive raiding guilds often keep their logs on progress private so that they don't give away anything about their tactics to rival raid teams. It's likely the same happens in FFXIV.

EDIT: just realised I didn't quite get to your question. My apologies!

Most of the time people upload logs publicly because they don't think much of anything of it. They don't really consider that someone might get singled out due to a log they uploaded. Humans are imperfect creatures with imperfect lives. Everyone has a bad day, anyone can get distracted or have lag. No one, not even the best players, always have amazing logs. Sometimes it can take just one bad log to have people exclude you. Never mind how no one is amazing to begin with. We all must start somewhere and some people mercilessly toss aside this fact.

I don't think most people upload logs with the intention of naming and shaming. They're simply putting them up to have a look. But a lot of people do look up public logs with the intention of possibly excluding someone.

[Xarion]

I have no issue with parsers at all, I’m just trying to figure out if people seeing someone else’s numbers is why they are a problem to some. I guess it’s a personal opinion in the end. I don’t personally find someone mentioning my damage being low, especially if I can learn something from it.

[Seraph522]

I have no issue with parsers at all, I’m just trying to figure out if people seeing someone else’s numbers is why they are a problem to some. I guess it’s a personal opinion in the end. I don’t personally find someone mentioning my damage being low, especially if I can learn something from it.

It's not being able to see another person's numbers that's the problem per se, it's what can be done with that information and how it can be abused that is the problem. Seeing that someone's DPS is low and saying, "Hey, I noticed your DPS is a little low; do you need help with your rotation?" is fine; that's using the tool in a positive manner.

The problem comes up when people get kicked, harassed, and/or abused because their DPS values don't hit an arbitrary number (and by arbitrary, I mean a standard that has nothing to do with general good play and more along the lines of, "you aren't in the 95th percentile, I'm kicking you from this leveling dungeon"). This can happen even without parsers, but the presence of those numbers can enable that kind of behavior in ways that aren't possible without it. By making it against TOS to use them, you allow users to report people who are abusing third-party parsers to harass other players, even if they aren't the ones being directly harassed (which, in the past, has often been something the GMs couldn't/wouldn't take action on; not sure if that's still the case with the updated TOS).

I think parsers are a great tool that can really help you improve your gameplay. I also completely understand why SE doesn't allow them, and I think it probably helps the game's overall culture to not have them.

[Camiie]

The other major factor is the collection of data regarding damage numbers gives players a measuring stick to gauge their improvement and efficiency.

Of course, I never agreed to be part of that process. Fortunately I was able to opt out of fflogs, but what if they didn't provide that feature? Oh well, sucks to be me I guess? Shouldn't have started playing FFXIV if I didn't want to be recorded by third party software and have it posted on third party websites? Are there any other parsers or websites I need to check? Does anyone even know what all is out there?

They can access the records of other people on the same job and compare situations and performances.

Maybe I should post a public resume and all my job performance evaluations to help make my chosen industry better? Or maybe someone in the industry should do it for me without my knowledge or consent! If I don't like it, I can just opt out I guess, right?

Self improvement questions that focus on comparison, like "What buffs were up for the player?" "What actions did they do differently?" or "Was their order of actions different?"

These lead to "Why did the person at 90th percentile do things this way?" and "Can I replicate this same result in my own static?" This isn't limited to raw damage either. This can and is used for healing usage and mitigation cooldowns as well. Did this team get away with eating the tankbuster with only shelltron and rampart? What healing was used after? Et cetera.

But I don't want to be involved in your self-improvement process, ostracized for opting out of it, or ostracized for some arbitrary number. Unfortunately the way parsing is done has put me at risk for being damned no matter what I do. It's an unofficial pre-judgement system whether its meant to be or not, and I feel pretty strongly that's exactly what it was meant to be.

[Dualgunner]

Of course, I never agreed to be part of that process. Fortunately I was able to opt out of fflogs, but what if they didn't provide that feature? Oh well, sucks to be me I guess? Shouldn't have started playing FFXIV if I didn't want to be recorded by third party software and have it posted on third party websites? Are there any other parsers or websites I need to check? Does anyone even know what all is out there?

They do offer an opt-out, so this point is kind of moot. Although you might want to check Twitch and Youtube, people commonly stream the game and those recordings of your gameplay would also exist.

Maybe I should post a public resume and all my job performance evaluations to help make my chosen industry better? Or maybe someone in the industry should do it for me without my knowledge or consent! If I don't like it, I can just opt out I guess, right?

"You'd best start believin' in ghost stories, Ms. Turner...cuz you're in one."

But I don't want to be involved in your self-improvement process, ostracized for opting out of it, or ostracized for some arbitrary number. Unfortunately the way parsing is done has put me at risk for being damned no matter what I do. It's an unofficial pre-judgement system whether its meant to be or not, and I feel pretty strongly that's exactly what it was meant to be.

You're allowed to feel that that's what it's meant for. But you can't read FFLogs' creator's mind, so you can't make that decision for them.

[Camiie]

They do offer an opt-out, so this point is kind of moot. Although you might want to check Twitch and Youtube, people commonly stream the game and those recordings of your gameplay would also exist.


"You'd best start believin' in ghost stories, Ms. Turner...cuz you're in one."

I predicted that sort of response. Other wrongs don't make this right.

You're allowed to feel that that's what it's meant for. But you can't read FFLogs' creator's mind, so you can't make that decision for them.

They're free to stop by and clear up any misconceptions.

[Dualgunner]

I predicted that sort of response. Other wrongs don't make this right.

I'd hope you'd predict this response since you specifically asked where else recordings of your character might be. Again, you can opt out too, so the "What if I couldn't?" scenario is moot.

They're free to stop by and clear up any misconceptions.

That they are. Likewise, you're free to not assign motivations to people you don't know based off of how their work has affected you personally.

[Camiie]

I'd hope you'd predict this response since you specifically asked where else recordings of your character might be. Again, you can opt out too, so the "What if I couldn't?" scenario is moot.

So why should I have to opt out? Why shouldn't the burden be on you or those who produce the parser to ensure everyone in the group is opted in and to exclude anyone who isn't by default?

That they are. Likewise, you're free to not assign motivations to people you don't know based off of how their work has affected you personally.

And yet much is assigned to other players solely via parsing and may well not be the complete picture of their gameplay that you think.