Revelations from Keynote II

[LineageRazor]

They can handle G'raha in exactly the same way they handled Estinien (depending on whether you'd done DRG quests), Allisae (depending on whether you'd completed Coil): a minor, one-off piece of dialogue. It could be something like:
- Have not done CT: My name is G'raha Tia, and I have been keeping watch over the technology kept within the Crystal Tower, waiting for the day it would be needed. Now, I have emerged because etc etc etc
- Have done CT: It's good to see you again, my friend! You may be wondering why I have left my post at the Crystal Tower. As it happens, I have emerged because etc etc etc

Others have mentioned time travel, and that would make things even cleaner, as far as G'raha is concerned. Whether you know him already or not, he could know YOU, since it's a future version of him. It simply presumes you'll do CT sometime in the future, if you haven't already (even if the player never actually does so during their tenure playing this game). It would be spoilers for his eventual fate in that plotline, but whatevs.

IN GENERAL, however, the devs have long, LONG since decided their stance on this: They just don't care, and will not spend much effort on keeping players from getting confused about what happens when. Players themselves are responsible for figuring that out, if they do events out of the order they were introduced. There will be no hints given, and no assistance of any kind for the potential confusion this can cause.

The first instance of this occurred when you had the ability to serve a delicious meal to the Sultana during the CUL job quests, even if she's supposed to be deceased (e.g., do the CUL quests after the dramatic cutscenes ending ARR, but before the Sultana is found to still be alive in HW). There have been other instances since, such as Estinien, Allisae, and Nero.

[Ceridwenae]

The first instance of this occurred when you had the ability to serve a delicious meal to the Sultana during the CUL job quests, even if she's supposed to be deceased (e.g., do the CUL quests after the dramatic cutscenes ending ARR, but before the Sultana is found to still be alive in HW). There have been other instances since, such as Estinien, Allisae, and Nero.

I had to double check because I came later to the game, but regarding the CUL quest as I understand it, it was in straight away in the relaunch patch 2.0. Therefore Nanamo was quite alive at that point, and the game likely assumes you level all your crafts up to 50 ahead of the release of new MSQ content in 2.1, but technically she didn't run into her mishap until 2.5.

But again, all the characters mentioned are initially introduced in the MSQ by default (assuming no DRG 30-50, although this isn't as story breaking as the main bulk of getting to know Estinien is followed afterwards in the Heavensward MSQ; G'raha's big stuff has already happened and learning second hand about something which could be so, so very important is... lame), therefore even if you inadvertently forget them, you will have some frame of reference to check back upon in your journal, or the Unending Journey if need be. It's perfectly acceptable for them to then drop back in at any time, even if they spend some time doing other things, and it's just a one-line change of dialogue that does not get in the way of the flow of the tale. I still see no precedence here for what the theory proposes.

I disagree about time travel being clean, but since I was one of those people who mentioned it, I don't discount it. However, I was very much under the impression CT has happened, whether our WoL was involved or not (mine certainly was, but my daughter wouldn't have a clue at this point).

I also disagree: I think SE do care, otherwise we wouldn't have revised lore books or interactions in this very forum. They can make errors with dates and things, but they do seem to care about getting the story across, which is why the streams don't cross, unless characters (such as Cid, Nero) are already established in the MSQ. They are the ones that need to come back and give G'raha his dues if it is indeed him. It's cleaner than time travel. Everyone who plays this game knows who Cid is, regardless of raid experience. He can sum up in just a few lines about his adventures in the CT and elsewhere if relevant, and make G'raha intros if it has to go that way. However, he needs to get a move on to avoid all the bobbins I wittered about earlier.

Otherwise this will be somewhat disappointing.

EDIT: Do want to add this, because I have to stress again, I'm not saying it's not our catboi, just that I need precedence to be established for the why and the how, and currently, I still don't see it. It could be perfectly possible he only dons that rather ascian-looking garb at the very last second for whatever reason which may be revealed along the way; but also, this is clearly the most important thing, and I'm super sure someone said this earlier in the thread but I've lost where: what happened to his ears if it is him? Has he just smushed them down flat, the poor love? That would be uncomfortable as a permanent place for them, surely! Should I order cake and grief counselling just in case? In a slightly more serious tone, of course it still doesn't mean it's not him, but it doesn't help the case - or again, unless there's precedence you guys know about where miqo cats squish their ears to the point they can't be seen (pig costume heads and the like may not be counted under this, I think)?

[Iscah]

For visual reference...


Click for a larger version

It's not just the face that matches, but also the colour scheme of the costume.

In the event that the Mysterious Figure is actually G'raha Tia and he's suddenly relevant to the MSQ i really doubt that SE is gonna be like "ok so you have to do this raid that used to be optional but now you have to because otherwise you wouldn't understand the plot".

My bet is that it would be something like this: the events of the Crystal Tower happened. Even if it wasn't your WoL's story it was a story that happened. [...]

Indeed - the raid doesn't become compulsory, but "re-encountering" characters you don't know should be a prompt for you to go back and play the raid, so you fully understand where they're coming from.

I don't think they would set up a "the story happened, but with another adventurer in your place" scenario though, because then it gets extra-messy when the player does go back to do it.

I'd say the story either has to be written as if you already did the raids, or they use time travel to get around the inconsistency.

But really, half the issue is that the writers can't decide whether they plough ahead with the grand scope of the story, MSQ and sidestories all happening at their fixed times, or whether certain things need to be walled off so we don't cross the streams - even if they should be relevant. *coughunukalhaicough*

There was a brief flashback of G'raha (and of Mide) during the Omega quest though - I have to wonder if you still got those if you hadn't done the quests. Or are the writers running on the assumption that if you're doing this optional quest, you probably did the past optional quests too?

If G'raha is a Chekhov's Gun and is our mysterious voiceover of recent patches, he should've been in the MSQ in some way already to bear absolute relevance to those selfsame MSQ lines. And if he hasn't (afaik, he's raid only), then there's some groundwork to be laid hard, otherwise the story in terms of his presence risks incredulity. He can, of course, be mentioned by characters such as Cid or Nero if they comes back into MSQ plots proper, but then we're potentially wasting time on exposition, or alternately, not giving enough weight to G'raha's role. It's messy, clunky, and there's simply got to be better candidates.

"Setting him up" in the MSQ now would depend on how they're (hypothetically) handling the Crystal Tower continuity. If it's 'assumed to have happened' then yes, having Cid or Nero allude to these past events would be the best way into it - but at the same time, difficult to explain everything that happened without holding up the plot to review those events.

Alternately, if Krile knows him, then she might be a better candidate for recognising him and asking for an explanation, because she's unaware of what happened at the Tower. (Which could be skimmed over with something like "it's a long story, but the gist of it is, I've been entrusted with these special Allagan powers. Now I need your help with [new plot point]...")

If we simply get (re)introduced to G'raha himself, either time-travelled or (rather more messily) simply emerging from the Tower again, regardless of whether he was in there in the first place.... he's in much the same place Estinien was if/when we 'first' meet him post-Heavensward.

The ARR DRG quests are an important part of Estinien's introduction. They set up his backstory, and the fact that he has already briefly fallen to Nidhogg's power once before. We aren't given any of this information if we missed it "earlier"; we have to go back and play the DRG quests ourselves - which is probably more of a story barrier than having to complete a sidequest you can do with any job.

If a player hasn't been through the Crystal Tower yet, then G'raha would be a stranger to them upon his re-introduction - but then it's no different to if he were a completely new character introduced for 5.0. (Again, just like Estinien being a "new" MSQ character for Heavensward.) It would affect some initial dialogue, but then we get down to the core of it (last guardian of Allag; able to unlock the Tower's secrets) and the story carries on the same, whether you are previously familiar with him or not.

I've thought about it, and honestly, I don't want it to be G'raha in that quasi-Ascian getup. Especially not with the Shadowhunter in play, since I can't imagine him caring much for the hosts of the Ascians he's taken out. I can already see how that's going to play out...

I agree that I'm not particularly wanting it to be G'raha, but rather that the clues seem too undeniable. I'm hesitant how it will play out, but then I'm feeling like that about Shadowbringers in its entirety...

I don't agree that the robes look "Ascian" though. We either discussed it here earlier or elsewhere, but they look more Allagan to me - which would fit with his "last of the Allagans" thing now.

It's only the hood that makes it look somewhat Ascian, but the overall costume is a different style to their usual robes (more drapey and a lot more colourful) and leaves the arms bare. And even the hood looks closer to the ornate Dreadwyrm Hood of Healing than the plainer hood on the Ascian cloaks. (See also: the thaumaturge guildmasters, who are dressed at least as ominously, although their being Lalafells mutes it somewhat.)

Overall the costume design puts me more in mind of the main character from The Last Guardian - which could be read as another conspiracy-theory stealth hint, I suppose, although only the English version of the game has that title.

If anything, the closest suggestion that he might be a villain is that he's placed opposite Solus on the poster, where the other balanced pairs (Y'shtola and Urianger; Alphinaud and Alisaie) are allies. Though it also could be misdirection, or a simple case of them being "leftovers" without obvious pairs.

Honest, I've not (though I wish I had)! I only brought him up because if you hadn't done DRG 30-50 there's different dialogue when you do meet him, and then you get to be mates and whatnot afterwards in HW. It's just that active spending time with him before stuff goes down is important. It's also why I mentioned Thancred - in that the game ensures you spend some time around the Ifrit shenanigans with him so you even if your starting city isn't Ul'dah, you appreciate the ramifications of what occurs.

As I mentioned above, there is important stuff that goes down with Estinien "before" you meet him if you didn't do the DRG quests.

And honestly, Thancred (and all the Scions) have the ultimate "important past events you missed" backstory because of 1.0 being eternally cut off for new players.

We spend time with Thancred in ARR before he got possessed in ARR, and with Estinien in Heavensward before he got possessed (is this a pattern?!) at the end of Heavensward. Therefore it seems to follow that we would be hypothetically spending time with 5.0 G'raha before 5.0 stuff goes down, to make that feel significant regardless of whether you have earlier history with him or not.

And these chaps are both MSQ intros, which is of key importance. Same with Alisaie, she's an MSQ intro. Cid is an MSQ intro. Nero is an MSQ intro. Krile is an MSQ intro (first mentioned "off-camera" in Minfilia's linkpearl call to her, iirc, in ARR).

Krile's been an MSQ character through post-Heavensward and Stormblood, actually. It's only her role in Eureka that's forced her to step out of active events during post-Stormblood.

[Cid and Nero] need to come back and give G'raha his dues if it is indeed him. It's cleaner than time travel. Everyone who plays this game knows who Cid is, regardless of raid experience. He can sum up in just a few lines about his adventures in the CT and elsewhere if relevant, and make G'raha intros if it has to go that way. However, he needs to get a move on to avoid all the bobbins I wittered about earlier.

It's only cleaner if they want to go the "Crystal Tower already happened, don't you remember being there?" route - which itself is messy.

If they want to take the "timeline preserving" route where it only happened if you personally saw it happen, then Cid and Nero aren't currently aware of it either. In which case time travel DOES become the clean option that avoids the tangle by shifting G'raha to being from a point where the events have definitely happened and had their impact on him, even if they haven't for you yet.

this is clearly the most important thing, and I'm super sure someone said this earlier in the thread but I've lost where: what happened to his ears if it is him? Has he just smushed them down flat, the poor love? That would be uncomfortable as a permanent place for them, surely! Should I order cake and grief counselling just in case?

Ahaha, I think he might need cake and some kind of (post-timewarp-shock) counselling regardless. Certainly cake. He's been locked up in there for gods-know-how-long and he's probably pretty hungry at this point.

But for a disguise and/or dramatic reveal? I don't see a problem with him temporarily wearing a hood that flattens his ears. (Cats' ears do have that flexibility, don't they?)

Maybe he just couldn't find any Allagan robes with ear-flaps sewn in.

(and this is why I like these lore threads! I love this sort of discussion, and I'm really happy to be able to take part in it, even if my lore is subpar in comparison to the rest of you!)

Glad to have you here!

[Fenral]

That is a really good reference shot, first off. Who? When? Where?

I agree that I'm not particularly wanting it to be G'raha, but rather that the clues seem too undeniable. I'm hesitant how it will play out, but then I'm feeling like that about Shadowbringers in its entirety...

I don't agree that the robes look "Ascian" though. We either discussed it here earlier or elsewhere, but they look more Allagan to me - which would fit with his "last of the Allagans" thing now.

I had a thought not so long ago, and while the viability depends entirely on how they feel about retiring an old weekly quest, I was toying with the idea that G'raha would need to be using another name if he were to appear, mostly because his name is actually fairly generic, having been pulled from the Naming Conventions document without much thought (or is it there because it's his name?). What name would he be using, you ask? Noah.

Either he'd be borrowing it ironically, or he'd actually be taken over voluntarily (or involuntarily) as host for a certain Archmagus who spends most of his time drunkenly lounging around Revenant's Toll. Last we spoke with him, he seemed very interested in G'raha's present state, after all. And I bet he could find Nero's scanner.

Or, even crazier:

There's also a possibility that he'll be calling himself "Desch" and end up Mide-ing himself into ancient Allag to fall into Salina's good graces and ultimately become his own ancestor, and that by inserting himself into Salina's memories to be witnessed by his past/future self, he'd leave a strong enough impression to convince himself to drop everything and entrust himself to Destiny, completing the loop.

But I came up with that one before Alexander did almost exactly that, so I'm not sure if it'd be paying off foreshadowing or just more reciprocal rehashing for stories with too much in common.

If anything, the closest suggestion that he might be a villain is that he's placed opposite Solus on the poster, where the other balanced pairs (Y'shtola and Urianger; Alphinaud and Alisaie) are allies. Though it also could be misdirection, or a simple case of them being "leftovers" without obvious pairs.

Or we're reading it backwards, and Solus is going to become our ally. :P

[Iscah]

That is a really good reference shot, first off. Who? When? Where?

Where did I get the screenshot, you mean? Straight from the game - cutscene #1 for the quest "For Prosperity". Rammbroes is in the foreground with G'raha standing further back.

I had a thought not so long ago, and while the viability depends entirely on how they feel about retiring an old weekly quest, I was toying with the idea that G'raha would need to be using another name if he were to appear, mostly because his name is actually fairly generic, having been pulled from the Naming Conventions document without much thought (or is it there because it's his name?). What name would he be using, you ask? Noah.

Either he'd be borrowing it ironically, or he'd actually be taken over voluntarily (or involuntarily) as host for a certain Archmagus who spends most of his time drunkenly lounging around Revenant's Toll. Last we spoke with him, he seemed very interested in G'raha's present state, after all. And I bet he could find Nero's scanner.

That definitely could be possible. He was the one who originally proposed the name, too.

There aren't any quest rewards from it that you can't easily buy with poetics... or perhaps they could even add a different version of the quest dialogue so it's now the (somewhat bewildered) real Koh Rabntah that is giving out the quest once Noah finds a new host.

On a side note though, it seems that the original Noah was female - unless it's a translation error, the lorebook uses female pronouns when talking about her specifically and not Koh.



Re. naming patterns, I don't think there was a "lack of thought" when naming him, rather that there is simply a limited format that all male Seeker characters have to follow. The tribe-letter and Tia title are both required, so the writers only get to choose the exact tribe and his given name Raha.

The name generator isn't going to ever give the name _'raha Tia, because Raha is actually taken from the 'female surnames' list - technically also a male names list, but not one that will ever be given to players. The writers seem to like using this list rather than the generated male name list.

[Keever]

I had a thought not so long ago, and while the viability depends entirely on how they feel about retiring an old weekly quest, I was toying with the idea that G'raha would need to be using another name if he were to appear, mostly because his name is actually fairly generic, having been pulled from the Naming Conventions document without much thought (or is it there because it's his name?). What name would he be using, you ask? Noah.

I don't think G'raha's name being "generic" is a particular issue. Lyse Hext, Fordola, Arenvald, Artoirel, Emmanellain, Hien, Kaien, and Gosetsu are all names straight out of the random name generator at character creation (the last three are "Raen" names).

[Fenral]

I don't think G'raha's name being "generic" is a particular issue. Lyse Hext, Fordola, Arenvald, Artoirel, Emmanellain, Hien, Kaien, and Gosetsu are all names straight out of the random name generator at character creation (the last three are "Raen" names).

Wow, uh, okay. Did not realize that. Mostly I was thinking in terms of existing character H'raha Tia, the MNK 60 boss, who is literally one letter off. I know the pool is finite, but that still seems careless to me.

[Iscah]

Wow, uh, okay. Did not realize that. Mostly I was thinking in terms of existing character H'raha Tia, the MNK 60 boss, who is literally one letter off. I know the pool is finite, but that still seems careless to me.

I think someone in the writing team might just like the name Raha. It's used (as O'raha) for one of the "construction examples" in the naming conventions guide as well.

As I mentioned earlier, from the "complete list of name-generator names" that I linked, it seems that it's not a name you could actually get out of the generator program. It's from the female surname list (female surnames actually being their father's name) which is separate from the list of male forenames and doesn't just repeat the same names over again.

[Allyissa]

For visual reference...


Click for a larger version

It's not just the face that matches, but also the colour scheme of the costume.

Sorry a bit late to the discussion. Iscah, I looked long and hard at the two pictures you posted. The one on the left looks like the lips seem more feminine than the one on the right. Also when I check the whole picture of the one on the left on Page 2, I see most of the male lips are much broader. So maybe not G'raha Tia.

Aside from that, I have some theories of my own. One of them is regarding Y'shtola and Matoya. Now, I went and watch some of the cutscenes. The first time you encounter Master Matoya, she speaks about the fights between her and Louisox. I believe she respected Louisox even though they fought over theories and what have you. Considering what I remember from 1.0 cutscenes, it seems that Urianger might have been a pupil of Louisox. Urianger also speaks of Louisox to guide his hand in the Warrior of Darkness arc. So, it seems plausible that Urianger may have met Master Matoya at one point. Also in that same first encounter, I believe Master Matoya kind of chewed out Y'shtola a bit reminding her why the spell she used was considered forbidden magic. Now, if the spell Y'shtola used was forbidden magic, it is possible that Master Matoya also knows a few spells that are forbidden as well. As to why Y'shtola never had her spirit make it back to her body when the others did so is hard to say. Most likely it is due to the forbidden magics she used back at the end of ARR and how it affected her aether. If the Scions are in need of another more experienced mind, it might be the reason Master Matoya sent her spirit into Y'shtola's body.

Now, I have been thinking of what the twin dooms are. In the 4.5 trailer, it mentions that "Win or lose, the path we walk only leads to oblivion." In the 5.0 trailer, it looks like we are getting a flood of light. So would this be flood of light on the 1st shard and the flood of light on the source as the twin dooms? Could the meaning behind throw wide the gates have dual meanings? One gate being between the 1st shard and the source and the other gate being that we are able to use powers of darkness to eliminate the excess light on the source.

It also appears that the dark crystal is indeed the representation of Zodiark. In the cutscene with Gaius, he speaks of the 3 Ascians tied to the source. In the background is a dark crystal. Which kind of leads me to believe the voice might be Zodiark. For the source to be destroyed, it would not be in Zodiark's best interest. It seems like the lack of communication between Hydaelyn and us and Zodiark and the Ascians plays a part in all this. Maybe we have a much strong echo than the Ascians and Zodiark is trying to get our attention to stop what is coming.

Feel free to poke holes in my theory. I don't mind. We all have theories until something can come along and prove us right or wrong.

[Ceridwenae]

Ahaha, I think he might need cake and some kind of (post-timewarp-shock) counselling regardless. Certainly cake. He's been locked up in there for gods-know-how-long and he's probably pretty hungry at this point.

But for a disguise and/or dramatic reveal? I don't see a problem with him temporarily wearing a hood that flattens his ears. (Cats' ears do have that flexibility, don't they?)

Maybe he just couldn't find any Allagan robes with ear-flaps sewn in.

Ah, I still haven't time to go in depth on the meat of the subject, but I just had a Eureka! moment. Whatever happens, poor G'raha is our next custom deliveries NPC. He needs cake, clothes with cat-ear flaps, new decor, maybe an orchestrion...

Poor lad.