The current formula of gear progression NEED CHANGE

[Anvaire]

Sadly i think relic has only two options, either they make it even harder to gain and have it overpowered the issue being in that it wouldn't have and value in content except for a few weeks.

The alternative, would be to unlock the fist stage at the beginning of an expansions content i.e level 70/71 and have it grow and develop over the course of the expansions content. This would effectively mean that there would be no need for crafter or primal or raid weapons, instead have these drop items that unlock a relic look or empower it to the next Ilevel stage. It's similar to how World of Warcraft adopted relic weapons. The ramifications of this method of progression is that there would be less need to "farm" primals or do other content, so balance would be difficult not to mention that by its nature, it would result in less glamour and rob master crafters of items to work towards.

Effectively i think, the only way of making relics more than glamour after a few weeks is the above, or by tying them to specific high end dynamic content. But then we would have an issue in that what would be the incentive to keep doing such content?

[Reynhart]

It wasn't removed for complication. It was removed for forcing players to have to gain certain gear.

And it was replaced by ilvl requirement, forcing player to have certain gear. I can't understand why the dev team alwyas goes to the extreme with this. Having an incentive to get more gear is not automatically making it a hard requirement.

The accuracy requirements were based on where you attacked on a boss and what the fight was. Front had the highest requirement, then flank with rear having the least. I'm not sure what "depth" you were expecting from a stat that was there solely to check to see if you can hit something.

Again, accuracy had a fixed entry value, basically like ilvl. In FFXI, two targets of the same level could have different Evasion stat. Also you didn't always use the same weapon skills in a fight and multi-hits gained more from stacking accuracy than single hits.

Which, still, feeds into SE explicitly stating they will not force players to bring certain classes into these fights.

Again, having the best setup differs from boss to boss is not forcing players to have that setup to be viable. There's no reason that itemization always have the same effect on your DPS, whatever target you're facing. And if they thing optimization equals mandatory, then it's already in the game.

You are misdirecting my rebuttal to your statement. You said there's no reason to have bosses only differ in HP values

Yes, statwise. We're talking about gear itemization here, not gameplay. It's like countering that tank jobs plays differently if I complain that they always has the same BiS in the game because ilvl trumps everything.

Players will always consume content faster than what can be put out unless you gate it behind high RNG or obscene grind, even if it is easy

First, optimization can be put behind a grind or RNG, since optimization has no reason to be mandatory. Also, with the current patch cycle, people don't even have to consume all the content, because they know they can simply do it faster in a few months time or can simply skip it entirely.

XIV is a modernized MMO [read: streamlined] so I really don't understand the need to regress

It bugs me how going for a deeper game system can be considered a "regression". I find it more of a regression to have every encounter locked into a boss room, with no strategic option like having a sneak approach, or using environnement to take out monsters safely, etc...

[Alexandre_Noireau]

It bugs me how going for a deeper game system can be considered a "regression". I find it more of a regression to have every encounter locked into a boss room, with no strategic option like having a sneak approach, or using environnement to take out monsters safely, etc...

Man.
Every boss room is either a circle or a square. It makes me feel like someone doesn't understand we have a 3D game...
Ok, almost every boss room, like 90% of them. And that is just so shallow, so uninteresting.

The arena of Agrias for example, has those torches, and a star pattern shape outside the circle. Why those were not used...?

[Nayout]

It is too late for this type of change, the community is already accustomed to the current state of the game that any method that comes out of the normal routine would simply end in complaints from people who do not want to sacrifice things to see a change.

The other is, currently there is a game with a type of progress as mentioned? Much of this progress was fueled by the fact that the internet was not yet massive and communities were much smaller, so information was not so easy to obtain.

[JunseiKei]

And it was replaced by ilvl requirement, forcing player to have certain gear. I can't understand why the dev team alwyas goes to the extreme with this. Having an incentive to get more gear is not automatically making it a hard requirement.

The ilevel requirement ensures that the fights players are entering are meeting the basic minimum gear level the fight is intended for. No one likes a freeloader. It only forces players to have gear in the broadest of strokes: it doesn't matter what the gear is as long as you meet the ilevel requirement. That is a far cry of a difference to something like BiS.

Again, accuracy had a fixed entry value, basically like ilvl. In FFXI, two targets of the same level could have different Evasion stat. Also you didn't always use the same weapon skills in a fight and multi-hits gained more from stacking accuracy than single hits.

All I can pull from that is not every fight has the same accuracy requirements and open world monsters had little to no accuracy requirements so all classes could kill monsters. I don't know what else to say to this other than it was largely thought of that accuracy requirements will always be met, so let's get rid of them while hindering some classes (like healers, since fights don't not require constant healing, but well timed healing at best).

Again, having the best setup differs from boss to boss is not forcing players to have that setup to be viable. There's no reason that itemization always have the same effect on your DPS, whatever target you're facing. And if they thing optimization equals mandatory, then it's already in the game.

That was the same with accuracy because not every fight had the same accuracy requirements.




The above meant you could opt from one piece of gear for another because you didn't need this piece with 100 accuracy. This 'itemization' was done away with.

Yes, statwise. We're talking about gear itemization here, not gameplay. It's like countering that tank jobs plays differently if I complain that they always has the same BiS in the game because ilvl trumps everything.

You did not clarify that at the time. Also, all tanks do not prioritize stats the same way (from what I think I understand, a WAR needs a certain amount of skillspeed to fit a certain string of attacks in Berserk while DRK and PLD have no such requirement - PLD and DRK gear similarly). Ilevel does not trump everything; WEAPON DAMAGE sure does though as that is a hard cap to the damage, or healing, you do. What matters is if the stats you are sacrificing can be made up in another piece of gear that are better. That is how crafted gear can be BiS for some classes with certain builds.

First, optimization can be put behind a grind or RNG, since optimization has no reason to be mandatory. Also, with the current patch cycle, people don't even have to consume all the content, because they know they can simply do it faster in a few months time or can simply skip it entirely.

Optimization has always been optional, but generally done for those that care about min-maxing. There's also no reason to punish people that want to min-max.

You say that, but there's people out there that have done all of a patch's content in a week. Even the grindiest of relic steps in the past have been done at 24 hours to 3 days. It wouldn't surprise me if there's someone out there with a fully upgraded Eureka weapon and armor right now. Yes, people can also do the content later, but there are always MMO players that are voracious in their playtime in a given title.

It bugs me how going for a deeper game system can be considered a "regression". I find it more of a regression to have every encounter locked into a boss room, with no strategic option like having a sneak approach, or using environnement to take out monsters safely, etc...

[Nearly] 20 years of that play-style is how, having a job and responsibilities that limit play time that I definitely no longer have like I once did in middle school, high school or college. That's probably a huge reason why MMOs are in the decline - you put in grind and you make the "no-lifers" happy, but you make the people that work 40+ hours not able to do that content. Eureka is a testament to that - it made people with lots of time happy and others very vocal about their displeasure at something so shallow and boring. XIV is just lax enough to allow real life to happen and not be left in the dust because you're an adult now. That's one of the absolutely most refreshing aspects of this game and for me it's just as upsetting that someone wants to push to have it changed. It probably upsets me in the same way my choice in statement upset you. More things, since we were talking about horizontal gear progression, also doesn't mean it's deeper.

I also don't see a reason to add unneccessary complications to a game that was not designed to have them placed into the game. Deciding to add such systems into a game generally requires a lot of work and fine-tuning. Stealthily approaching enemies or using the environment against them is not really something that I find synonymous with numbered "Final Fantasy" games. They have managed to find their way in XIV, though, if you've set foot in Palace of the Dead or Heaven-on-High.

Still, that has nothing to do with gear.

[Dav2017]

My personal opinion: As much as I enjoyed the horizontal progression in FFXI and originally wished it was in FFXIV, I don't think changing directions ~5 years into the game is a wise idea from a business standpoint. You'll inevitably lose some players who don't like the change. You're not likely to pick up many new subscribers when you have to say "Yeah, you have to get through 2 expansions worth of content (or pay money to boost past it) before that actually takes effect." You're not likely to lose that many subs if you keep the current vertical progression, since anyone still around after this long is at least okay enough with the current system to still be subscribed. And of course, my biggest hangup with it is that FFXIV doesn't allow you to swap gear mid-fight (though admittedly they could change that if they really wanted to). In FFXI at least, that was a critical aspect.

FFXIV has lost 96.5% subs already (sold 14m copies, only 500-600k players keep playing this game)
because they're tired of this formula,

On the other hand, the number of XI players is increasing, XI has no new expansion, development cost is cheap, but the players keep playing it, good business isn't it?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

FFXIV has lost 96.5% subs already (sold 14m copies, only 500-600k players keep playing this game)
because they're tired of this formula,

On the other hand, the number of XI players is increasing, XI has no new expansion, development cost is cheap, but the players keep playing it, good business isn't it?

How many copies did xi sell, vs how many still play? Probably around the same %.

You keep trying to use that number to show something it doesnt mean.

Did you know that like, only 60% of players earn the first trophy in most games on PSN? That means that 40% of people who buy nearly every game never play it to the first trophy, which is usually within 15 minutes.

Also, if you are so tired of this game, why do you have 3 different accounts that you are subbed on?

[Daralii]

Sadly i think relic has only two options, either they make it even harder to gain and have it overpowered the issue being in that it wouldn't have and value in content except for a few weeks.

The alternative, would be to unlock the fist stage at the beginning of an expansions content i.e level 70/71 and have it grow and develop over the course of the expansions content. This would effectively mean that there would be no need for crafter or primal or raid weapons, instead have these drop items that unlock a relic look or empower it to the next Ilevel stage. It's similar to how World of Warcraft adopted relic weapons. The ramifications of this method of progression is that there would be less need to "farm" primals or do other content, so balance would be difficult not to mention that by its nature, it would result in less glamour and rob master crafters of items to work towards.

Effectively i think, the only way of making relics more than glamour after a few weeks is the above, or by tying them to specific high end dynamic content. But then we would have an issue in that what would be the incentive to keep doing such content?

Part of me wonders how the playerbase as a whole would react if the next relic cycle(since we know there's more Diadem/Eureka-y content coming) was just the Trial of the Magians from XI, especially since the Hydatos weapons are named after them. No patch cycle requirements, just "Here's your awful base weapon. Go kill thousands of mobs, multiple NMs, and farm rare drops with it. Also, there are over a dozen variants that all have to be done individually." It would give character customization and, if you put your nose to the grindstone, give you a weapon that would last the better part of two years. On the other hand, have fun with that.

[Reynhart]

The ilevel requirement ensures that the fights players are entering are meeting the basic minimum gear level the fight is intended for. No one likes a freeloader.

But again, it's not because someone didn't farm a full Fire Resistance set for Ifrit EX that he's a free loader. Currently, there is an optimum setup, wether it's for party composition or gear. So, if the fear is that adding horizontal progression makes some items mandatory for optimization, then it's a void point because this issue is already in the game.

That was the same with accuracy because not every fight had the same accuracy requirements.

It's more "Harder fights have higher accuracy requirements". For example, in A6, you face 4 robots. Those 4 targets have the exact same accuracy, even though you could have two nimble robots (The two arms) requiring more accuracy, and two heavy robots (The two legs) requiring less accuracy but more critical to compensate for their slightly higher defense. Just an example.

You did not clarify that at the time. Also, all tanks do not prioritize stats the same way (from what I think I understand, a WAR needs a certain amount of skillspeed to fit a certain string of attacks in Berserk while DRK and PLD have no such requirement - PLD and DRK gear similarly).

Yes, but what bugs me is that this has nothing to do with what content you do. It makes sense for different jobs to seek different gear, but it could also depends on what you do. In fact, that's, for me, the most boring part of FFXIV. Fights always flows the same way. You could theoretically remove the player team, and the boss would still do the exact same script over and over, apart from the occasional phase skip. So basically, you're doing what you have to do, the boss does what he has to do, but those two are not that "related" in the end.

Ilevel does not trump everything; WEAPON DAMAGE sure does though as that is a hard cap to the damage, or healing, you do. What matters is if the stats you are sacrificing can be made up in another piece of gear that are better. That is how crafted gear can be BiS for some classes with certain builds.

Weapon Damage trumps everything and main stats trump almost every substat discrepancies (Except the occasionnal extremely bad itemization)...but weapon Damage and mains stat are completely tied to ilvl.

There's also no reason to punish people that want to min-max.

It's not punishing...in fact, it's the exact opposite, since older items wouldn't be made irrelevant every time new items appear.

You say that, but there's people out there that have done all of a patch's content in a week.

Sure there is. But you still have lots of people completely skipping content because they don't think it's worth the effort. If the early savage weapon were still relevant at the end of the expansion, you'd have people go back to it once they acquired better gear, simply because this weapon can be useful. Right now, if you don't do Savage when it launches, you have no reason to farm it 6 months later.

[Nearly] 20 years of that play-style is how, having a job and responsibilities that limit play time that I definitely no longer have like I once did in middle school

But, right now, if you want to stay viable in content, you have to farm your whole set again. If you had horizontal progression, you'd be free to keep some old items, because they're relevant enough. So, in a way, this could end with less mandatory playtime. If you want to optimize, however, you could spend some time theorycrafing what set is better for each fight and farm more gear if you like. And you wouldn't ask why you bother to struggle for a gear when you'll be able to buy something better in every 6 months after that. You could also have items with additionnal stats not made for combat, like walking speed, HP/MP regen, reduced tp cost...for when you're simply roaming on your own.

Let's imagine that you remove some job restriction from gear. As a tank, wether you're going to be the main tank or the off-tank (For example, in a 24-man raid), you could favor either Fending gear or Maiming gear, since the Maiming gear could give you Direct Hit unavailable otherwise, but the reduced Defense/MAgic Defense would be too much to tank for the full duration of a fight..

I also don't see a reason to add unneccessary complications to a game that was not designed to have them placed into the game.

Because a system that's too simple has a higher risk of reaching stagnation. Right now, you could already removes several stats and you'd end wth the exact same result gameplay wise.

Stealthily approaching enemies or using the environment against them is not really something that I find synonymous with numbered "Final Fantasy" games.

But no numbered Final Fantasy need to keep you engaged for hundreds of days. Yet, some of them still have a deeper itemization with various resistance or additionnal effect.

[Yeul]

FFXIV has lost 96.5% subs already (sold 14m copies, only 500-600k players keep playing this game)
because they're tired of this formula,

On the other hand, the number of XI players is increasing, XI has no new expansion, development cost is cheap, but the players keep playing it, good business isn't it?

Err, dunno where u take that info, but FFXIV number are actually increasing over the last few months. A lot of players coming from other games, and most of FFXIV players are still playing even in the end of STORMBLOOD