How to make tanking fun.

[Awful]

I have to agree with Kalise on this one. Active mitigation typically has to be something that is not reserved for express use. If it could, it wouldn't require any active efforts on the player's part to prepare for the coming damage, merely a timer of sorts. There has to be an integral means of compromise available to be manipulated, decisively and timely, towards mitigation.

How WoW decides to redefine the term as in order to offer additional gimmicks and continue not to have much actual active mitigation is of no consequence to its typical meaning.

It depends if you're doing Mythic+ tanking it's no different than say an Expert in XIV where you save your CDs and cycle them for example, if you're doing a Mythic+10 you'll have 4 affixes affecting you and depending on the A) Dungeon B) Affixes C) Season affix (right now in BfA it's Reaping where all monsters you killed at a % percent completion come back to life to attack you all at once). You generally plan how you're going to do them based on your CDs, how to juggle them, your healers CDs, and Line of Sight if needed all comes into play. Raid tanking is more or less CD cycling on trash/tank CDs on bosses in BFA.

Honestly if XIV had Mythic+ dungeons I think it'd work very well if they redesigned tanking to a more Active Mitigation tanking or leave it as it is and add in Pomanders from PoTD/HoH to give it a unique FFXIV with it's own Affixes and I think it'd be better than WoWs.

[Shurrikhan]

It depends if you're doing Mythic+ tanking it's no different than say an Expert in XIV where you save your CDs and cycle them for example, if you're doing a Mythic+10 you'll have 4 affixes affecting you and depending on the A) Dungeon B) Affixes C) Season affix (right now in BfA it's Reaping where all monsters you killed at a % percent completion come back to life to attack you all at once). You generally plan how you're going to do them based on your CDs, how to juggle them, your healers CDs, and Line of Sight if needed all comes into play. Raid tanking is more or less CD cycling on trash/tank CDs on bosses in BFA.

Honestly if XIV had Mythic+ dungeons I think it'd work very well if they redesigned tanking to a more Active Mitigation tanking or leave it as it is and add in Pomanders from PoTD/HoH to give it a unique FFXIV with it's own Affixes and I think it'd be better than WoWs.

I'm aware of the comparisons available to WoW's Mythic+ tanking -- I frequently run them on both BDK and Prot Warrior (finally highly desirable with Reaping affix) myself, along with healing them on Priest and Shaman -- but how WoW approaches active mitigation doesn't change what active mitigation is, nor that it has to be active (and integral) rather than simply time-deployed and/or separable.

I have no doubt, also, that XIV could do a better job of something like WoW's Mythic+'s affixes than WoW itself, but I'd prefer to see not only the means, but also the goal, made XIV's own. Simply slapping pomanders onto it will only make a gimmick-ridden and incohesive knock-off. There's a ton that they can do with cards, elements, and so forth in order to make not only unique gameplay, but unique progression and encapsulation for it all. True active mitigation would be slightly outside the point unless fit into systems that extend beyond the tank alone, but such improvements could be a hell of a boon, too.

[Awful]

I'm aware of the comparisons available to WoW's Mythic+ tanking -- I frequently run them on both BDK and Prot Warrior (finally highly desirable with Reaping affix) myself, along with healing them on Priest and Shaman -- but how WoW approaches active mitigation doesn't change what active mitigation is, nor that it has to be active (and integral) rather than simply time-deployed and/or separable.

I have no doubt, also, that XIV could do a better job of something like WoW's Mythic+'s affixes than WoW itself, but I'd prefer to see not only the means, but also the goal, made XIV's own. Simply slapping pomanders onto it will only make a gimmick-ridden and incohesive knock-off. There's a ton that they can do with cards, elements, and so forth in order to make not only unique gameplay, but unique progression and encapsulation for it all. True active mitigation would be slightly outside the point unless fit into systems that extend beyond the tank alone, but such improvements could be a hell of a boon, too.

I'm totally in agreement with you I feel like extending that into tank gameplay alone could be one hell of a boon I'd welcome it honestly, as for Pomanders yeah it was mostly just an idea it's not the best but you adding in cards makes it way more diverse. And apologies you're right it doesn't change what active mitigation is or it to be "active" within the parameters of being time-deployed and separable, I just wish XIV had more diverseness within the tanks, which might change in 5.0 (hopefully).

I like how Blood DKs are in WoW (I'm playing one as well Prot War was my 2nd choice alongside DH even if they fell off, but I digress) as they fit their fantasy role as well as having their OH CRAP buttons such as Bonestorm for smoothing out damage and healing on AoE pulls, Vampiric Blood for strong burst healing, Ice Bound Fort, Anti-Magic Shield and Eternal Rune weapon. They fit their own class fantasy as well as being a very strong Mythic+ tank which is what I wish DRK was but I know they're 2 different games, DRK just doesn't have the self healing and is more of a hand cramp to play, I hope 5.0 we get more of WAR being a strong mitigator while DPSing, PLD being a utility tank for the party and itself and I have no idea what GUN will be.

Bottom line is if there was a Mythic+ system I'd want it fleshed out like you described as well as having diversified tanks with their own strong but different ways to mitigate, whether it be self heals, strong mitigation, or strong utility such as debuffing as well I find that WoW has quite diverse tanking combined with great class fantasy, now I don't want copies of them just those are ideas.

[Kalise]

I just wish XIV had more diverseness within the tanks, which might change in 5.0 (hopefully).

Yeah...

Though, if Active Mitigation was made more prevalent that would be a way to help diversify tanks somewhat, given that they all could utilize different types of Active Mitigation (Which is part of what helps other games Tanks diversify themselves)

For example:

PLD could gain more Block chances so would mitigate by blocking 20% of incoming damage. Maybe even let them block some spells too. Given they're currently the only Tank with a shield, they should have more focus on it.

WAR could gain more healing, including some percentage health healing. Maybe even some max health increases as active mitigation (Along with current health increases. Think mini-Thrill of Battle) - I imagine something akin to Black Orks in Warhammer Online where their strength was that they would constantly proc health boosts with their attacks (Though, a little less overtuned because BO's like couldn't die it often felt like xD)

DRK could get more focus on shielding. What with TBN already being a key point for them. Stuff like turning Souleater into shielding instead of healing and the like. They could even have some cool mechanics where they sacrifice a portion of their health to gain shields based on that health loss (I.e. Something like sac 10% max health, gain 15% max health as shield) allowing them the generate buffers as well as synergizing with HoTs better by being able to mitigate overhealing.

GUN could focus on damage reduction. Stuff like putting up temporary barriers that reduce incoming damage by a percentage (Kind of like Inner Beast does now).

This could then extend directly into diversity with DPS combos (Thus OT roles/DPS stances).

Such as PLD having more of their MT damage focused on Shield Swipe (Increase its potency, let blocks reduce its CD by 1 second or something) so they want to keep blocking attacks to keep their damage coming out. With DPS stance focusing on their blade attacks instead (I mean, they are called "Sword Oath" and "Shield Oath") - Could even let some of their combos differ to reflect this. I.e. Shield Oath incorporating higher enmity generating skills that smack with their shield, while DPS stance uses the current blade technique skills.

WAR could get more Upheaval style potency modifiers, adjusted slightly so it's based only on max health rather than current health. So when MT they wanna keep proccing more health increases to deal more damage. While in DPS stance they unleash their inner beast more and could get Blood for Blood style damage trade modifiers. They could also get a version of "Cover" that allows them to proc health increases on another target, giving them some utility in the OT role.

DRK already has a dichotomy within their class, which can be expanded on. Generating more MP and thus being able to use more DA's to empower their skills during Tank Stance. Meanwhile, Blood Weapon could be converted into a DPS stance for them and focus more on faster attacks and more Blood generation. With select shielding skills being converted into damage or skill speed boosts during DPS Stance.

GUN it's hard to say without any knowledge of the basis of their attacks... But at a guess their Tank stance could involve Hissatsu: Seigan style retaliation attacks, while their DPS stance focuses more on generating more ammo to use to enhance skills.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm totally in agreement with you I feel like extending that into tank gameplay alone could be one hell of a boon I'd welcome it honestly, as for Pomanders yeah it was mostly just an idea it's not the best but you adding in cards makes it way more diverse. And apologies you're right it doesn't change what active mitigation is or it to be "active" within the parameters of being time-deployed and separable, I just wish XIV had more diverseness within the tanks, which might change in 5.0 (hopefully).

I like how Blood DKs are in WoW (I'm playing one as well Prot War was my 2nd choice alongside DH even if they fell off, but I digress) as they fit their fantasy role as well as having their OH CRAP buttons such as Bonestorm for smoothing out damage and healing on AoE pulls, Vampiric Blood for strong burst healing, Ice Bound Fort, Anti-Magic Shield and Eternal Rune weapon. They fit their own class fantasy as well as being a very strong Mythic+ tank which is what I wish DRK was but I know they're 2 different games, DRK just doesn't have the self healing and is more of a hand cramp to play, I hope 5.0 we get more of WAR being a strong mitigator while DPSing, PLD being a utility tank for the party and itself and I have no idea what GUN will be.

Bottom line is if there was a Mythic+ system I'd want it fleshed out like you described as well as having diversified tanks with their own strong but different ways to mitigate, whether it be self heals, strong mitigation, or strong utility such as debuffing as well I find that WoW has quite diverse tanking combined with great class fantasy, now I don't want copies of them just those are ideas.

Haha, yeah, I totally understand wanting that from DRK. and wanting more diverseness in general.

To be honest, whenever this topic comes up, though, I can't help but reminded of the "perception of power".

Take, for instance, any good MOBA character playing to its strengths. Because it's strengths are niche, those times are few, but within them they each fill wicked strong. Now, don't take that as advocating for niches -- I quite nearly hate them in MMOs unless the game as a whole supports that form of diversity, which XIV (like most "endgame"-centric MMOs) doesn't even come close to doing -- but just consider that feeling. I want tanks, and possibly every job in XIV, to feel inordinately strong in the gestalt of their toolkits when played perfectly (not necessarily by any one or few part or parts a person could point at and say that's what makes it strong, but just this whole <job>-ness of it all).

DRK actually has these moments going for it quite well in some respects, if only in trend or readily imaginable prospects. Consider its strength when playing against massive amounts of weak enemies when entering with full MP and Blood and Delirium, Blood Price, and Blood Weapon each at the ready. It doesn't need heals, and it does a ton of damage. Between 100% healing yourself of DA-AD and clobbering enemies with better-than-free DA-Quietus spam, it feels ridiculously strong. The problem is that situation's barriers to entry, along with those like it: it's more clunky (even if not exactly convoluted) than it needs be and the conditions for its occurrence far too rarely available.

In 3.x, these situations weren't quite so obvious, but they were far more frequent. Stun, DA-DD and DA-DP for frequent dodges, Awareness added in early if a crit could get dicey but otherwise holding to avoid anti-synergy and to ensure even more stun spam from parries. Reprisal this, lifesteal from that, kick that in the face, AoE these, cut that to ribbons, plunge to the other side... It felt intense. And it's strange how much the loss of different tiers of mitigation, and perhaps even of that anti-synergy that could still be stacked (if inefficiently) for burst mitigation, diminished that perception when trading it all for extra DA casts. The DA-SE Lifesteal ought to have felt more prominent rather than merely tacked-on, the DA potency bonuses stronger and chunkier, and DA's use more decisive and punctuating, with plenty of other things -- each with their own synergies -- to fill it out. Heavensward DRK's mitigation might not have required much decisive compromise from within its rotations, given the low thresholds for enmity, but it was at least active in the sense that there were dependencies, synergetic and anti-synergetic, and had to be maneuvered thusly for optimization. That should have been deepened. Honestly, I feel like it was ripe to make a better tank than any in WoW, by far. And if the others had followed through on the strengths of that comprehension and polish, it could have had a much more diverse and satisfying tank line-up than WoW's. Though, that's not exactly setting a high bar at this point.

Though I, again, generally hate niche-focused design in MMOs, I actually really like the idea of PLD as the one with the most direct and comprehensive toolkit for indirect output via safeguarding when both personally under fire or protecting another. Concisely, I'd like to see more shield usage. And I mean a lot more shield usage. I'd go so far as to say I'd like to see it able to Shelltron (or, "Guard") as a GCD channel, and for shield and sword skills to only half share a GCD. I like to build jobs from their roots, and the roots of Paladin -- however some may desire to waste them -- is in Gladiator. So I consider: what would make a Gladiator work, even on its own? And the toolkit that would require would be frantic yet paced, fast yet tactical, reckless yet strategic, lead by muscle memory but baiting towards a chosen goal with every step. Those are fine roots on which to build a knight, even if some of the extents of those aspects might be toned down -- being so deep that PLD would otherwise feel like an aRPG crossover compared to its party-mates -- in exchange for deepening the opportunities each in use of sword and shield each in their own right. Add to that some protective magics to extend range and control even further... stewing over it for even some dozen minutes it quickly becomes hard to imagine how the job's gameplay has been left as mediocre as it is.

Warrior proceeds oppositely. Everything about that job should be about power. Sheer, stupid power. But it needs something more from its stances. I dare say it needs to take back granular dynamic percentile buffs, to be applied to actions taken in Defiance and Deliverance alike through Wrath/Abandon generated, with generation based directly on relative potency dealt (albeit with SP still perhaps having a higher modifier and Infuriate still generating 50 gauge, however much potency that might normally be) and fading over time. The more gauge generated in Defiance, the more damage-to-healing and maximum HP one gets. The more one puts out in Deliverance, the more crit chance and crit bonus one gets. The synergy between the two will make-or-break the Warrior. Reduced swap cooldown, if any, with preparation for a massive tank buster often coming down to, say, a Fell Cleave spam to guarantee a fat crit on the next Inner Beast, swapping just in time for Defiance, Infuriate, and a double Inner Beast. Damage to live. Live to damage.

Each tank should feel like a one-man army. If non-tanks feel left out after that, then they too should be made to feel like one in their own way. The key is perception. In fact, it may be that no job unless played by the absolute best of the best could even solo a leveling dungeon at their level, but if in context, playing to their strengths, they feel like they can take on the world, then that's a job well made.

The sad thing is that the answer for why this or that falls short in XIV almost always seems to come back to undermechanics, or even something as base as polling rate or number of floating point units allowable to a single encounter. The above PLD ideas are among the worst hit; to really get the most of a tank with a masterful intercepting/defensive kit, there'd need to be more damage that can't just be redirected to the PLD off enmity-stacking alone. That means AI improvements to allow for AI diversification and in turn diversity of encounters. DPS feeling like one-man-armies, likewise, would likely require some involvement of active dodging, and some small trade away from direct damage dealt by bosses into something more manipulable and recoverable therefrom. Neither will happening any time soon, if ever. And that can't be blamed solely on the devs lack of ambition. The community, too, is far too willing to accept barebone mechanical development space as if it were complete and/or unimprovable. We're very willing to complain about homogenous design, but rarely ever about what it takes to allow for designs which would not homogeneous. At the same time, we so often condemn even slight advantages or disadvantages and often making any concrete requests based on examples already existent in other jobs in the same role (which, naturally, must then proceed towards homogeneity). But neither is such illogical or frivolous; it's vital in the context we have, which is rarely more than 5 relevant fights at a time; out game, or the only parts under real scrutiny, comes down to at most 26 mechanics at a time, very few of which are new, and none of which are or even could be crafted with specific jobs in mind. There's a negative feedback cycle and an ever-narrowing flow by least resistance here, and it'd take vast and active measures to start breaking out of either.