Summoner’s job identity

[Kreyd]

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ARR quests clearly stated:"Smn's can summon Egis. Those are pets."
HW quests were like:"Ok you can't summon other Egi's for..."reasons" I guess...but hey, let's infuse you with bahamuth aether! Maybe this will do something cool!"


You're right in terms of "Egi's could be buffed to be more powerfull.", but often stated issues with Egis's are, that they:

-don't add anything to gameplay.
-don't offer much variety.
-don't listen to your commands.

Even if you buff Egi's, make them more reliable in responding to your commands and add more versions of them (Shiva, Ramuh etc.) you will still end up with 1 or 2 useful pets, that just autohit your enemies most of the time.

If you think having 1 Titan-Egi you never use is irritating, imagine having 12 of his sort...

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Lv 70-80 quests could basically change Smn's wihtout breaking with the lore. (I liked your idea with Princi teaching us "actual" summoning) However, this would mean, that the job would get a complete design change after 70 levels, which just would be chaotic.

Imagine playing Nin up to lv 70 and suddenly it has to play like Mnk.

[Kalise]

You're right in terms of "Egi's could be buffed to be more powerfull.", but often stated issues with Egis's are, that they:

-don't add anything to gameplay.
-don't offer much variety.
-don't listen to your commands.

Even if you buff Egi's, make them more reliable in responding to your commands and add more versions of them (Shiva, Ramuh etc.) you will still end up with 1 or 2 useful pets, that just autohit your enemies most of the time.

If you think having 1 Titan-Egi you never use is irritating, imagine having 12 of his sort...

But that's why I suggested making Egi's work more like Demi's.

Less "Pets" and more "Summons". So you don't care about them listening to commands because you don't command them, they do their thing like Bahamut does.

They could then have more variety because without being permanent pets, they can have more impact when they're on the field. Instead of being mostly there to slap things for Ruin IV procs and occasionally use a skill like Contagion.

They could then also add to gameplay by being things you periodically bring out (Whether or not you tie them to something like Aetherflow/Trances or whatever is neither here nor there) much like a BRD rotates through their songs (Even though they have 1 song that's objectively inferior to the other 2, they still use it to bridge the gap between the CD's of the other 2)

[Lauront]

Regarding the egis, a suggestion that I've seen made was to streamline them into 3/4 roles (ranged dps, melee dps, tank, healer), each with their own templated ability set, and make the glamours impact the appearance and fluff naming labels for the abilities.

I think with SMN adding abilities that don't build on their current playstyle, i.e. Bahamut mage, is tricky because they've sort of boxed it in this position based on the quest lore. Workarounds like rebuilding it to something else post 70 could be done, but it'd be extremely jarring.

Still, I like the Grimoire-M's idea of turning the egis into demi-egis and having their abilities integrate with the core rotation.

SMN is a fun job but at the moment it seems like there's different elemnts to it all tugging in different directions.

[Grimoire-M]

Still, I like the Grimoire-M's idea of turning the egis into demi-egis and having their abilities integrate with the core rotation.

SMN is a fun job but at the moment it seems like there's different elemnts to it all tugging in different directions.

The reason I propose those changes is because to me, SMN lacks synergy. It's the same problem that MNK has with the disparate elements within its kit. They don't interact with one another meaningfully. To me, the best way to mechanically represent the SMN theme is to emphasize that "you are working with your pet". The sum is greater than its parts and all that. The Machine Gun Damage over Time effects compliment this aspect by making SMN's sustained DPS all about a ton of little numbers, with pointed tactical burst that draws on the Arcanist subtheme. The skeleton is all there, the key is make them build upon one another to add the meat that brings out that theme.

I'd be fine with alternative proposals that acknowledge this problem and try to find solutions to it. But that requires a deeper examination than simply "More Egi! More Bahamut! Pet QoL!" to work.

On that point, I also dislike the idea of Egi 'phases' that imitate a BRD's songs. But that's because I want SMN to be mechanically distinct from BRD. They tread similar ground, so we have to be careful about adding more overlap.

[Kalise]

The reason I propose those changes is because to me, SMN lacks synergy. It's the same problem that MNK has with the disparate elements within its kit. They don't interact with one another meaningfully. To me, the best way to mechanically represent the SMN theme is to emphasize that "you are working with your pet". The sum is greater than its parts and all that. The Machine Gun Damage over Time effects compliment this aspect by making SMN's sustained DPS all about a ton of little numbers, with pointed tactical burst that draws on the Arcanist subtheme. The skeleton is all there, the key is make them build upon one another to add the meat that brings out that theme.

I'd be fine with alternative proposals that acknowledge this problem and try to find solutions to it. But that requires a deeper examination than simply "More Egi! More Bahamut! Pet QoL!" to work.

On that point, I also dislike the idea of Egi 'phases' that imitate a BRD's songs. But that's because I want SMN to be mechanically distinct from BRD. They tread similar ground, so we have to be careful about adding more overlap.

True, the notion of "Demi-Egi's" as temporary 'phases' can end up being similar to BRD songs, there are still ways around that which still provide more depth to the pool of summons without feeling too similar to a BRD plopping on songs.

Such as you could make the act of Summoning an Egi have significant impact. Like, if you summoned Titan-Egi and he came into play casting Mountain Buster. With further synergy such as a skill or a proc that boosts the damage of your next summon's opening attack. So you might want to Summon a particular Egi for its immediate effect and then swap to a different one that you prefer the sustained output it provided. (Potentially functioning similar to Ion Cannon Deathflare where at the end of your 'trance' (Egi summon) you summon in a new Egi for its boosted skill)

If some Egi's also gave you boosts that allowed you to in turn boost other Egi's you could combo between summons (Further fulfilling the "Sum is greater than its parts"). For example, Ramuh-Egi granting you a Thunderstorm spell or buff, which lets you debuff enemies into taking more damage from melee attacks from your Egi's (So the likes of Ifrit, Titan, Ravana, Susano and Odin) in addition to it being a direct boost to your own damage output.

So it's less like BRD's "Well... I want to keep this song on when possible and this song if it's on CD" it would be more like "Well, I could use this Primal's ability right now, but then I might want to get some extra DPS from this Primal that I can boost the damage of... Oh, but maybe I should use the skill that this other Primal gives me first!"

[Ephryos]

Honestly the OP has the right idea. I picked Summoner to use magic through my summon while my job was just to bring it forth and command it. I think just keeping the same gameplay mechanics they have but refocusing their actions with the egis and having attacks coming from them would make me love Summoner so much more and it would feel so much better with the job fantasy. I love the OP's Demi-Garuda/Ifrit/Titan idea. If the tiny egis could have moments when they take on the actual primal form albeit smaller it would finally give a sort of alternative to the fact that we can't just have them big all the time. I'd want new egi glamours so bad for Shiva/Ramuh/Levy though if they could also become the Demi forms.

Honestly though, whatever SE does even if it's a complete revamp to separate SMN/SCH I just hope they go in the direction of making the PET the main focus of your damage and not the Caster aesthetically.

[Phoenicia]

Imagine playing Nin up to lv 70 and suddenly it has to play like Mnk.

Imagine playing BRD for 50 levels and suddenly it has to play like BLM.... Oh wait, it's been done before.

Imagine having to play the new bow mage for 60 levels and then you have to play... BRD again, but with songs acting as stances... Oh wait, it's also been done before, but people are happy with this.

BLM played as this spammy turret, then suddenly and within two levels (58 and 60) changed to buff-juggly turret.

There is no better time to change how a job plays than a new expansion. (even though WAR underwent major overhauls in mid-expac patches, not once but twice). Lore can always be adjusted to allow for said change.

Back on topic though, I am very happy with how current summoner plays. I quite enjoy it a lot. However, I think getting a trait that allows benefitial pet swapping mid rotation would be very summoner-esque. Add in a few changes to incentivize having certain pets active during certain parts of the rotation (like how BRD songs function right now) and you're set.

Rotation might end up with something like: Titan during DWT, Ifrit during Ruin phases, Rudy when you are about to unload fester or just before summoning Bahamut.

You summoned 4 things!! \o/

[Dyvid]

Stormblood did a good job bringing certains jobs design back to the original intent like BRD and SMN. Summoner design is in a good place and I really hope SE builds upon what they have rather than trying to wipe the slate clean and pull another HW. The key issue with a job like Summoner is that nobody will ever agree on how it should play in FFXIV which is why we keep seeing this threads. I prefer the original FFXIV design which was built around pets.

[Skeith9]

Stormblood did a good job bringing certains jobs design back to the original intent like BRD and SMN. Summoner design is in a good place and I really hope SE builds upon what they have rather than trying to wipe the slate clean and pull another HW. The key issue with a job like Summoner is that nobody will ever agree on how it should play in FFXIV which is why we keep seeing this threads. I prefer the original FFXIV design which was built around pets.

THANK YOU! I've been holding off on commenting to hold back the rage, but you are a shining star of common sense. Every SMN in every game is different. I bet if your complaining about it in FFXIV, when FFXVI comes out with a focus on SMN (like X) you will be complaining that the lore and mechanics "aren't SMN."

[ValentineSnow]

THANK YOU! I've been holding off on commenting to hold back the rage, but you are a shining star of common sense. Every SMN in every game is different. I bet if your complaining about it in FFXIV, when FFXVI comes out with a focus on SMN (like X) you will be complaining that the lore and mechanics "aren't SMN."

It's not about it being different it's about SUMMONING taking a back seat on SUMMONER and for no good reason at that.

My issue is pretty exclusively with trance and aetherflow. These are our primary sources of power.... and they have nothing to do with summoning. Trance at this point is basically blue magic, we're casting deathflare, we're not summoning bahamut to do it, we are doing it. Aetherflow is entirely the summoner casting powerful spells like fester or painflare, the summon isn't even involved. Why is that? It could so easily be the pet doing these things.

Imagine if instead of having a pet hotbar the pet worked more like a MCH turret, you summoned it and it would auto attack, ifrit doing double melee attacks, garuda being ranged, titan being AoE. Their other abilities are gone (for now).

Then you would expend aetherflow stacks to make the pet perform special moves. Enkindle replacing painflare to make them do an AoE attack and bringing back spur to make them do a single target attack to replace fester. Contagion being changed (and preferably renamed) to be like devotion, a general skill that all the summons can cast. They could then bring back some of the pets utility moves like radiant shield/earthen ward/(something new for garuda probably AoE sleep) all under a shared aetherflow move like entrench.

Finally trance could be replaced with fervour, making you pet aetherflow attacks not cost stacks for the duration. Then they could make it work more like SCH where using aetherflow stacks fills a dreadwyrm gauge and you can use it to summon demi-bahamut who slowly drains the gauge and he copies you, attacking a single target when you do or using an AoE when you do and having a special attack that drains more gauge then just having him out so you could use it multiple times draining the gauge quicker or keep him out and use it at the last second.

Basically the point is, summoner could be so much more to do with summoning than it currently is without effecting much about it beyond its identity as a summoner.