Since we want to remove positional and tank stance, can we just remove healing too?

[Nyvara]

can we also remove useless topics too?

you forgot obvious trolling as well.

[Iscah]

But this isn't an action game, it's an RPG. Compare it more to other Final Fantasy games that have menu's full of spells and abilities, or the likes of Skyrim etc. with skill-trees, rather than Ratchet and Clank.

It's still an "action RPG" rather than a "turn-based RPG". That's specifically why I wrote action-based game (a description) rather than action game (a genre).

Turn-based RPGs can afford to have more skills, because you have time to navigate through the menus to select them. But for an action-based game where you are inputting your movements during a "live" battle, you need easier access to all your skills.

The defining elements of an RPG (to me) are long-form storytelling, a character that levels up with EXP and becomes stronger (and needs to equip better gear), with dungeons to explore and treasure to find.

Leveling and EXP are the thing that sets an action RPG (eg. Kingdom Hearts) apart from an action game (eg. Legend of Zelda) where your character upgrades come from finding items that make you stronger. That's my understanding of the two, anyway.

And R&C was the first thing that came to mind that gives a wide variety of skills without too many buttons, but isn't that terrible an example anyway. Yes, it's a platformer-cross-third-person-shooter but it still definitely has RPG level-up elements, moreso in later parts of the series - weapons gain EXP and level up to be more powerful, and you need to buy (and possibly grind to afford) weapons and armour.

[Nedkel]

I still want tank stances to go, because the idea itself is not contributing much into DRK and PLD gameplay.
Would be off much better if we had some more tools to manage enmity and make it more interesting.

Right now its just, go into tank stance 1-2-3 you are done, you dont even have to pull your dps meter high, it doesnt make the game any harder.
I am enjoying playing in off-stance much much more since it gives me thinking about my DPS and the enmity, and would be nice if those additional enmity tools would actually replace that provoke>shrink mechanic that is obligatory for second tank to do.

[Shurrikhan]

Rescue is pointless, it's impossible to get it off in time when it's needed, it's only ever used to troll. I've only ever had it used on me either, as I said, to troll by pulling me into harms way, or way too late to make a difference.

Works fine if considered preemptively. Like every Emergency cooldown in this game, when the danger is manifest, it's too late. But use it as a scheduled KB-undo or uptime-keeper and it works just fine.

As for the rest, every skill minus three is not "every skill", bolded or not.

But this isn't an action game, it's an RPG. Compare it more to other Final Fantasy games that have menu's full of spells and abilities, or the likes of Skyrim etc. with skill-trees, rather than Ratchet and Clank.

That's like judging the technicals of a film's use of audio specifically within and against silent films when the film in question has no such deliberate limitations. Yes, it's a different perspective, but efficient design still follows the same final goals.

Shooting in, say, Rachet and Clank, or any other action game, isn't just the result of a button, nor are aim or movement controls linked only to one's primary fire. The difference between what one could accomplish with that many keys separately, as a mere sum, rather than a functional combination, in gestalt, will show either efficiency or inefficiency. The tools that allow for Primary Fire tend to be very efficient--there's more that can be done than with any part or each part of it separated. Our purely linear combos give example to the opposite--though in n parts, they perform only one means of control.

If RPGs -- MMORPGs especailly -- would better make a habit of considering their keyspace as a means by which to exert control and manipulate one's character according to its capacities rather than just as a depository for items on some character arsenal ledger, that genre-based excuse would hold no wind.

Design can make effective, efficient use of some 24 or even 36 keys to approach a cohesive and satisfying control system by which to explore, optimize, and immerse oneself within a character's capacities and perspective therefrom. That's just not what's happening here.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I like having tons of options and complexity available. But depth and button count aren't correlative unless consistently efficient as possible and even then there tend to be curves in that efficiency over button count. If I had to pick a "magic number", it'd probably be at most 24 job-specific buttons (not abilities, mind you, which can be many, many more), with space enough for ready access to core functions through another 6 buttons to a total of 30 at most. But there's a huge range available to how well that many buttons can be put to use.

[LalaRu]

I still want tank stances to go, because the idea itself is not contributing much into DRK and PLD gameplay.

I'd rater wanna ask make tank stances being relevant, rather than delete them.
Or, following the same stance (pun...), about the button bloating we can ask to remove healing skills to healers, just because they are judged only by the dps contribute they do.

[Paladinleeds]

Rescue is pointless, it's impossible to get it off in time when it's needed, it's only ever used to troll. I've only ever had it used on me either, as I said, to troll by pulling me into harms way, or way too late to make a difference.

While it is indeed rare, 20ms ping plus quick reaction times means I've been able to pull some absolutely beautiful saves using Rescue. Now is my success rate high? Not really, and I do occasionally troll a friend or partner with it (anyone seen NEST and their shenanigans, nowadays I tend to go at my partner the most with it if trolling). But Rescue has been one of my preferred role actions since SB. Niche, but done properly it makes for an amazing skill.

Works fine if considered preemptively. Like every Emergency cooldown in this game, when the danger is manifest, it's too late. But use it as a scheduled KB-undo or uptime-keeper and it works just fine.

You're right in that it works great if considered pre-emptively, but with low ping and quick reaction times, you can see the danger unfolding, and quickly pull them in by studying the field. Although I guess you'd probably count that as pre-emptive. Whereas to me pre-emptive means you've already got it planned out exactly when you're going to use it. Whereas I use it to react to a situation that has started to unfold.

[LalaRu]

...Whereas I use it to react to a situation that has started to unfold.

Sloppyyyyyy!

[Reinha]

A more accurate comparison to tank stances and positionals would be the old Cleric Stance dance and, well... that's already been removed.

[Nedkel]

I'd rater wanna ask make tank stances being relevant, rather than delete them.
Or, following the same stance (pun...), about the button bloating we can ask to remove healing skills to healers, just because they are judged only by the dps contribute they do.

I dont think its possible.
Encounters would have to be much more threatening than they are now. If you have a stance in which you deal more damage and you could survive, then tank stance is barely used and will be out of meta.
Either that, or they should give healers more damage to compensate a tank sitting in tank stance and give enough def so healers could do more damage. They could also remove provoke-shrink but that would flatten the gameplay even more.
Unfortunately dps in this game is so important, that even if something gives 1% advantage you want to use it. I have no idea how much of features would tank stance need to be more appealing for min-max community. I dont even know if removing damage penalty would really change anything, since on DRK with Grit on you dont have blood weapon anyway, and on Paladin you lose a lot of dps from auto attacks alone.

[Liam_Harper]

Tank stance was a fair discussion.

Currently we just use one emnity combo and turn it off. You learn far more in dps stance since you're managing emnity and pushing damage while staying alive. In tank stance things stick to you and you can just fall asleep. The dps penalty is far too high, you literally don't have the dps to beat anything EX upwards without being carried, you have to turn it off and go dps stance.

Removing it isn't a definite answer because you need something to replace it with. But a lot of tanks would like it to be reworked so we have something to engage us more besides dps and voke-cd 3 times.

What's sad is a useful topic discussion gets ridiculed and a troll topic like this that contributes absolutely zero feedback or discussion gets upvoted.