Since we want to remove positional and tank stance, can we just remove healing too?

[KaivaC]

There was at least one thread of someone legitimately complaining that the fight was "too hard".

Yes!!! I remember that thread. Even with four buttons to use, they couldn't do it - like, the bar is already low enough for the most part.

[Reynhart]

but there aren't any jobs that can't have their entire skill set fit into 32 slots, which is 1 xhotbar and the expanded xhotbar.

PLD has 28 native skills. So, even before the role actions update, you already technically needed one more slot (I personally put Tempered Will there) and that's without the Limit Break, Sprint and item actions, that you might want to have a quick access to.

You could remove at least 4 slots by having each combo fused on a single slot and making Sword Oath a passive buff negated by Shield Oath. Technically, Total Ecplipse could also only be an upgraded Flash, it would change much.

And it's still safe to assume that SH will give us some new actions and not simply revamp what already exists.

[Shurrikhan]

Ability bloat isnt a thing though.
Some skills can afford to be optimised and conbined or cut for ergonomic efficiency, but there aren't any jobs that can't have their entire skill set fit into 32 slots, which is 1 xhotbar and the expanded xhotbar.

AST with undraw, de-RR, unspread, sprint, pot, LB, and role actions?

[Seraphor]

AST with undraw, de-RR, unspread, sprint, pot, LB, and role actions?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4870837

The undraw type skills are unnecessary, I'd rather 'get rid' of a card by using it, and I always try to spread the card I want to use before royal roading an effect I want, as that's the more efficient way to do it anyway. (If you RR an expanded, then you're relying on your next draw being worth expanding, and if you draw another spire/ewer then it's wasted entirely. If you spread a spear/balance or even arrow, then whatever you draw next can be used either on its own or to RR your held spear/balance)

As I detail in that post, I manage to fit every job and role skill I need plus sprint, mount, gysahl greens and LB. Feel free to exchange the greens for a pot when necessary.

[BillyKaplan]

As I detail in that post, I manage to fit every job and role skill I need plus sprint, mount, gysahl greens and LB. Feel free to exchange the greens for a pot when necessary.

I count Rescue, Cleric Stance, Eye for an Eye, and frigging Benefic II which aren't on your bar. It's easy to have room when you don't use a lot of skills other people do.

[Seraphor]

I count Rescue, Cleric Stance, Eye for an Eye, and frigging Benefic II which aren't on your bar. It's easy to have room when you don't use a lot of skills other people do.

Rescue is pointless, it's impossible to get it off in time when it's needed, it's only ever used to troll. I've only ever had it used on me either, as I said, to troll by pulling me into harms way, or way too late to make a difference.

People only started using Cleric Stance and Eye for an Eye once the role actions were expanded from 5 to 10. While Eye for and Eye might be useful, I'm a healer not a DPS, so Cleric stance will always be supernumerary to me.

I've actually macro'd Benefic and Benefic II together, so if I don't have enough MP I'll use Benefic instead of II. If you find yourself needing to use a GCD heal at all, then in all likelihood you need the higher potency one, so there's no choice to be made between the two.

[Iscah]

Coming from playing mostly single-player console games where action-based games tend to be designed according to the number of buttons available on the controller, the sheer number of skills that you have here (and are expected to use at all times) is still bizarre to me.

You don't *need* thirty buttons to press to make a game interesting and complex. It can come from the challenge of the fight itself, doing the mechanics properly, reacting well, etc.

Or complexity of skills is added in ways that don't require extra buttons. eg. the Ratchet & Clank series, where you have a huge number of situational weapons, and will use multiple types in one fight, but at any one time you basically have Jump, Shoot, Melee and Change Weapon buttons. No weaving in extra skills, just shoot things and try not to let them shoot you. And it's fun and sometimes quite challenging.

Also, melee combos - normally you just have one button, and the combo simply happens on its own, as long as you actually hit the thing three times in a row. Three buttons are not necessary to make it "interesting".

[Seraphor]

Coming from playing mostly single-player console games where action-based games tend to be designed according to the number of buttons available on the controller, the sheer number of skills that you have here (and are expected to use at all times) is still bizarre to me.

You don't *need* thirty buttons to press to make a game interesting and complex. It can come from the challenge of the fight itself, doing the mechanics properly, reacting well, etc.

Or complexity of skills is added in ways that don't require extra buttons. eg. the Ratchet & Clank series, where you have a huge number of situational weapons, and will use multiple types in one fight, but at any one time you basically have Jump, Shoot, Melee and Change Weapon buttons. No weaving in extra skills, just shoot things and try not to let them shoot you. And it's fun and sometimes quite challenging.

Also, melee combos - normally you just have one button, and the combo simply happens on its own, as long as you actually hit the thing three times in a row. Three buttons are not necessary to make it "interesting".

But this isn't an action game, it's an RPG. Compare it more to other Final Fantasy games that have menu's full of spells and abilities, or the likes of Skyrim etc. with skill-trees, rather than Ratchet and Clank.

[BillyKaplan]

People only started using Cleric Stance and Eye for an Eye once the role actions were expanded from 5 to 10.

Moot point. They're available and as you yourself admitted, have uses. Even the ones you yourself don't personally use. And cool you have two skills under one slot because of a macro
tl;dr There's button bloat.

[Reynhart]

While Eye for and Eye might be useful, I'm a healer not a DPS, so Cleric stance will always be supernumerary to me.

I've actually macro'd Benefic and Benefic II together, so if I don't have enough MP I'll use Benefic instead of II.

Two things that still invalidate your point of "button bloat isn't a thing since you already have enough slots to put all your skills".

Besides, do you also realize that the reason you don't have more skills lacking in your bar is because casters already have something done with their button bloat, with the various masteries. Without it, you'd have three Malefic and two Combust slots, unless you tweak your bars depending on the level sync every time.