Can we talk about the elephant in the room - Permanent Bans from the Official Forums

[Elamys]

Obviously I cannot speak for S-E, but I seriously doubt that they have a problem with critical feedback. What I think they see — which I tried to touch on — is the differences between culturally accepted practices in the West versus the East. In the West, there is a much higher tolerance for hostile, rude, and disrespectful language and tone. I think it's one of the larger problems with Western society. So for players to accede to Eastern standards — which honestly is just politeness and respect— is not a large ask. I won't go into anecdotal disciplinary decisions, seeing as we do not have the full picture. That said, perusing this thread, seeing what the lion share of the suspensions were for, it's fairly obvious that players just need to heed the ToS and they'll avoid 99% of problems.

People are getting banned for using language present in the game itself, and for simply quoting a post that caused someone else to get banned. Let's not blame "cultural differences" here.

[HyoMinPark]

Obviously I cannot speak for S-E, but I seriously doubt that they have a problem with critical feedback. What I think they see — which I tried to touch on — is the differences between culturally accepted practices in the West versus the East. In the West, there is a much higher tolerance for hostile, rude, and disrespectful language and tone. I think it's one of the larger problems with Western society. So for players to accede to Eastern standards — which honestly is just politeness and respect— is not a large ask. I won't go into anecdotal disciplinary decisions, seeing as we do not have the full picture. That said, perusing this thread, seeing what the lion share of the suspensions were for, it's fairly obvious that players just need to heed the ToS and they'll avoid 99% of problems.

And I still stand by what I said: SE needs to remember that they are marketing a product to the entire world, a huge portion of it being the Western world. Cultures collide, but those they outsource to moderate these forums shouldn’t swing a banhammer for one slip of the tongue with regards to “naughty words” or for critical feedback of a product. There have been posts that have been inherently polite and respectful that posters get in trouble for, and that are removed; while others that are blatantly rude and disrespectful, and still have posts that are present on the forums to this very day.

Don’t try to strawman with “cultural differences”.

[Iscah]

People are getting banned for using language present in the game itself [...]

I may be wrong, but my gut feeling on this is that we only see that language used with rough or unpleasant characters. It sets a tone in storytelling, but that's held to a different standard to how we are expected to speak in a "formal" discussion like this - for lack of a better word.

Everyday standards of speech have shifted and maybe people don't have the same automatic understanding of which words are (still) not acceptable. The lines of "what not to say" seem common-sense to me, but I was brought up being taught not to use those words - and still don't, ever. They are not necessary to express frustration. There's always something you can substitute.

[Jijifli]

I may be wrong, but my gut feeling on this is that we only see that language used with rough or unpleasant characters. It sets a tone in storytelling, but that's held to a different standard to how we are expected to speak in a "formal" discussion like this - for lack of a better word.

Everyday standards of speech have shifted and maybe people don't have the same automatic understanding of which words are (still) not acceptable. The lines of "what not to say" seem common-sense to me, but I was brought up being taught not to use those words - and still don't, ever. They are not necessary to express frustration. There's always something you can substitute.

and for simply quoting a post that caused someone else to get banned.

You left this part out, which is also true. You don't have to use the language yourself, if their swearing ended up in your own post via quoting.

[Iscah]

You left this part out, which is also true. You don't have to use the language yourself, if their swearing ended up in your own post via quoting.

I left it out because I wasn't responding to that bit.

But if I happened to be quoting someone who'd used language they shouldn't, I would probably delete or replace it in the quote (with square brackets) exactly because it shouldn't have been said in the first place, so I'm not going to reframe it in my post where the original poster can't even reconsider and correct it themselves.

[Makeda]

And I still stand by what I said: SE needs to remember that they are marketing a product to the entire world, a huge portion of it being the Western world. Cultures collide, but those they outsource to moderate these forums shouldn’t swing a banhammer for one slip of the tongue with regards to “naughty words” or for critical feedback of a product. There have been posts that have been inherently polite and respectful that posters get in trouble for, and that are removed; while others that are blatantly rude and disrespectful, and still have posts that are present on the forums to this very day.

Don’t try to strawman with “cultural differences”.

Then we could instead draw a very real example of cultural elitism. The idea that people all over the world have to do things the way your particular sub-group does them. Something demonstrated in... well... the post I'm responding to.

I actually think the person you responded to is factually incorrect about the culture he's making assumptions over... but that said, his attitude on dealing with that is spot on... this is their house, their norms, that we must abide by.

Folks should seriously consider just how anyone is supposed to even know... their sub-group's social norms... if not from that region. Just because something is 'obvious and normal' to you, doesn't make it so for others. And while you might be used to being able to brow-beat down people from other cultures that live in the same region as you but lack your numbers or influence, don't expect that advantage when you're in somebody else's playhouse.

The idea that "whenever cultures collide only mine has a right to win" is... extremely offensive.

[Nedkel]

There is always reddit to spoil if someone got a perm ban.

Then we could instead draw a very real example of cultural elitism. The idea that people all over the world have to do things the way your particular sub-group does them. Something demonstrated in... well... the post I'm responding to.

I actually think the person you responded to is factually incorrect about the culture he's making assumptions over... but that said, his attitude on dealing with that is spot on... this is their house, their norms, that we must abide by.

Folks should seriously consider just how anyone is supposed to even know... their sub-group's social norms... if not from that region. Just because something is 'obvious and normal' to you, doesn't make it so for others. And while you might be used to being able to brow-beat down people from other cultures that live in the same region as you but lack your numbers or influence, don't expect that advantage when you're in somebody else's playhouse.

The idea that "whenever cultures collide only mine has a right to win" is... extremely offensive.

They made a english part of the forum, so they should adjust their standards to this specific group of people.
We are not spoiling other parts of the forum with our complains, we are writing in a place specially made for us.

[Beckett]

I may be wrong, but my gut feeling on this is that we only see that language used with rough or unpleasant characters. It sets a tone in storytelling, but that's held to a different standard to how we are expected to speak in a "formal" discussion like this - for lack of a better word.

We also see it in descriptions for FATEs, items, quests, etc.

There are no language restrictions in the game itself (other than that you can't intentionally harass someone) so I really don't see why the official forums for the game should be any different.

[HyoMinPark]

Then we could instead draw a very real example of cultural elitism. The idea that people all over the world have to do things the way your particular sub-group does them. Something demonstrated in... well... the post I'm responding to.

I actually think the person you responded to is factually incorrect about the culture he's making assumptions over... but that said, his attitude on dealing with that is spot on... this is their house, their norms, that we must abide by.

Folks should seriously consider just how anyone is supposed to even know... their sub-group's social norms... if not from that region. Just because something is 'obvious and normal' to you, doesn't make it so for others. And while you might be used to being able to brow-beat down people from other cultures that live in the same region as you but lack your numbers or influence, don't expect that advantage when you're in somebody else's playhouse.

The idea that "whenever cultures collide only mine has a right to win" is... extremely offensive.

Excuse you. Are you saying that "SE shouldn't punish players for not directly adhering to their cultural standards" is an offensive and elitist thing to say now? Are you basically saying that SE can demand everyone bend to their norms while chastising those who disagree simply because they own this product? Mind you, I'm not defending people that are blatantly rude, but punishing those who are simply critical of a product is wrong, in my opinion.

This is a global product marketed to a variety of different cultures; not just SE's and not just mine. They should be prepared for things that fall outside of their norms, and should not punish for things like I listed above. How they "prepare" for these things - their marketing teams and localization teams are, more than likely, well-versed in the differing cultural norms of other countries. Claiming ignorance is a weak excuse.

I am not saying people are "entitled" to being pompous and rude, but when polite, critical feedback gets silenced, how is that excusable by "cultural differences" or by "You're in SE's playhouse now so you have to bend to their will"? Did you even read what I wrote? Businesses that market products need to take feedback into consideration. I don't fault them for ignoring rudely worded posts, but for polite, well-worded criticisms? Those should be paid attention to so that they can take into consideration ways to improve their product. It's Business 101.

And it's honestly silly that some of the bans handed out are for using language present in the game marketed to us and/or simply quoting a post that contained "foul language". Things like racial slurs I can fully understand, or strong, abrasive language directed at another poster. But sometimes the punishments seem trigger-happy, and there are plenty more that go unpunished for their "bad words".

It's ridiculous that moderation is so inconsistent that players sometimes wonder what is okay to post and what is not. There was another similar thread posted not too long ago that discussed just this. If I can find it, I will gladly link it here.

EDIT: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...esponse-please


But very nice at presuming that I "brow-beat down" people from different cultures than me. Next time, try to make a point without unnecessary ad hominem.

[Iscah]

We also see it in descriptions for FATEs, items, quests, etc.

There are no language restrictions in the game itself (other than that you can't intentionally harass someone) so I really don't see why the official forums for the game should be any different.

What FATEs, items, etc. are you thinking of that would be forum-inappropriate language? Not saying you're wrong, just wanting to know what you're referring to because I can't think of any.

(But... don't post the actual quote in that case, I suppose...)