How "Vote to Dismiss" is designed encourages abuse.

[Donjo]

So ... you agree systems impact how people behave, and then discuss ways systems discourage or encourage behavior. You agree but keep arguing.

It seems like what you meant to say was that you don't think the system should be changed much, because you feel that the majority of time, vote kick is not abused, and that additional punishments and restrictions would go overboard. That's a good point, but you made a generalization about systems not being able to encourage or discourage behavior, which was wrong.

Also, now you're aware that people grind in MMOs but also seek the path of least resistance to minimize effort (through things like vote kick abuse). This is why systems have to be designed with consideration for the types of behavior they motivate and allow.

You misread what I said. I separated the "system" and the "consequences" for violating elements of the system and stated that it is the consequences that encourage/discourage behavior and not the system itself. In short, it is not the vote kick system that dictates my behavior, but rather "what will happen if I am kicked". The vote kick system as a whole isn't encouraging abuse, the lack of significant consequence to being kicked and the occasional ability to completely nullify this consequence is encouraging abuse. Therefore, the issue isn't "the game is encouraging abuse!" or "the vote kick system encourages abuse!"... it's "being kicked doesn't punish people enough. This encourages abuse of the vote kick system!"

Additionally, not everyone takes the path of least resistance at every opportunity. Some, like myself, take what I will call the path of enough resistance. I can handle a few extra minutes in that dungeon, or a few extra days to get my Novus. Some can't, and that's your point. What amazes me, however, is the people who go through so much effort to decrease their effort that it would have been better if they had just gone along with things at the normal speed

[Vittorino]

Problem solved: queue as a group; you no longer have the privilege to "Vote Dismiss." if you decide to queue up make sure you do so with a full pt- to negate the third wheel.

Be eaz.

[Adler]

If you join duty finder or party finder then it is absolutely normal that there is a vote to dismiss system implemented - how the system is used is fully the responsibility of the group. If you constantly get kicked because other people say that you can't do your job well then there are just 2 choices:
1) think over what they say and how you might get better - it is obvios that something is not right if you get constantly "abused" by party members
2) get friends and do dungeons with them
If someone in your party purposely harass you to get kicked then do him/her a favour and vote kick using the statement "harassment".

[Oldschoolegamer38]

don't worry I just got kicked form Titan EX for no reason... It's players who use it to stop other from progressing should have the ban hammer placed upon there trolling heads.....

[myahele]

It should not be an option after clearing an instance.

More importantly, I think there should be a penalty (30min)for someone who is vote kicked multiple times in a given time, lets say 5 times in an hr.

I have seen MANY tanks and healers purposely dc, afk, offline after wipe during ex primals. Which result in us having to abandon and queue again....only to see the same person in the new party I am in. Who knows how often they do this till they get a clearing party.

Still, I don't see why harrassers and cheaters should get away scott free

[JD_Shadow]

Sorry for Necroing a dead thread, but I just found this through Google when researching for a friend when she was asking about this topic. Not sure how much has changed here since we last visited this topic, but yeah

There are three choices where it's pretty cut and dry about what they mean: AFK, Offline, and Cheating. First two are very cut and dry and you have to be hard pressed to find a way to spin the third reason.

The Harassment one's key. This can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Many will use this as the way to dismiss anyone who they feel is impeding their progress. It's correctly used to weed out asshats. But many can abuse the kick system to get rid of "offending playstyles". Remember that DPS that's TOO low for the dungeon is impossible because of Ilvl requirements for matched parties, which makes that reason just never truly work.

Impeding progress can also mean refusing to actively take part in the dungeon (why you are there), and it's obvious as to why they are doing things the way they are. But it doesn't mean that you can't just kick someone if they are trying to learn a fight on a particular class and you just won't allow them the means of learning the DPS part of the fight if they were always a healer before, even if the DPS told the party. Can't kick a DRG who was once a WHM from the party unless they were doing something to impede normal progress. If the tank CBA to understand newbie status, either by the game telling them or the player, and just GTFOs the dungeon when someone is actively asking for help, then there's clearly an issue with who kicks. If the DRG is just being disruptive and trolling the rest of the party, then you have all the right in the world to take action.

If someone is kicked because they decided to watch a cutscene instead of ESC out of it, that is DEFINITELY reportable, and I heard the GMs DO take action against people doing that.

Now I'm not sure if SE has cracked down on people who abused this system. I personally never actually USE that system unless someone is being a jerk or has connection issues (and I give people the chance to return before I take action since I want to be fair). I only use it as a last resort.

The "Harassment" option needs refining, to where there's a drop down menu or something about the types of common definitions (like extreme profanity, hateful comments, unwanted sexual advances, unwanted speedrunning, obvious disrupting of normal progression, etc.). Wouldn't be foolproof, but would cut down on abuse since it's asking for specifics and the details must match the descriptor.

All in all, it's still better than WoW ever was where anyone could kick for any reason without penalty or consequence. That game is AWFUL for people doing that. This game is the only MMO I've seen so far where it at least attempts to address toxic elitism. Nothing is ever foolproof, and I hope SE saw this thread. Again, sorry for necroing a dead thread here.

[SakurazukaSeishirou]

Remember that DPS that's TOO low for the dungeon is impossible because of Ilvl requirements for matched parties, which makes that reason just never truly work.

leveling duties don't have ilvl requirement. and no, you can't clear Aery with ilvl ~40 dps.

[JunseiKei]

~snip~

The "Harassment" option needs refining, to where there's a drop down menu or something about the types of common definitions (like extreme profanity, hateful comments, unwanted sexual advances, unwanted speedrunning, obvious disrupting of normal progression, etc.). Wouldn't be foolproof, but would cut down on abuse since it's asking for specifics and the details must match the descriptor.

~snip~

Harassment does not need more 'refinement' - it's just vague enough to cover all of the things you listed. There is a filter in game for profanity - if they are going around the censors, that's report-able. Unwanted sexual advances falls under ... sexual harassment. Even speed-running falls under harassment, especially if the group has voiced it doesn't wish to (emphasis on group), however, someone who doesn't want to speed-run while the group does, can also be reported for harassment and still be justified - it's very much a two-way street. However, Vote Dismiss is not overseen by GMs - the only time they would look at it is if they are sent a ticket over it and opened an investigation.

[Lambdafish]

I think what we need is more systems to detect the trolling.

AFK is a difficult one, because we can't just punish people for going AFK, we have all had situations where we need to leave for 5 - 10 minutes, and have gotten permission from the party to leave. What I propose is a system that detects if a player is afk, and every 5 minutes, each player is prompted with a message saying "_____ has been afk for longer than _ minutes, would you like to dismiss them? Note: Disrupting instances is frowned upon, if any issues have arisen, we recommend using the report function".

I feel like this is enough, however, SE won't do this because it encourages people to report, leading to more false reports and more work for SE sorting through them.

[JunseiKei]

I think what we need is more systems to detect the trolling.

AFK is a difficult one, because we can't just punish people for going AFK, we have all had situations where we need to leave for 5 - 10 minutes, and have gotten permission from the party to leave. What I propose is a system that detects if a player is afk, and every 5 minutes, each player is prompted with a message saying "_____ has been afk for longer than _ minutes, would you like to dismiss them? Note: Disrupting instances is frowned upon, if any issues have arisen, we recommend using the report function".

I feel like this is enough, however, SE won't do this because it encourages people to report, leading to more false reports and more work for SE sorting through them.

The game already automatically removes you from an instance if you've been AFK for 10 consecutive minutes, as well as gives you warning at 5, 7 and 9 minutes. If you have to AFK repeatedly for minutes, you should really be waiting to run what you are in when you can set aside adequate time for it.