As an FFXI player, thank you for Limited Jobs and BLU SE

[TheHeavenAbyss]

It failed cause it sucked, it didn't fail cause it was FFXI cause it wasn't FFXI even if it was trying to be that in any degree. It would be like saying Super Mario Sunshine sucks because it's trying to be Mario 64 and Mario 64 is outdated.

Well, obviously it failed because it sucked. But why did it suck? That's what this discussion is about. And it's no secret that FFXIV was just trying to be like FFXI. That's why they had Nobuaki Komoto as the director of XIV 1.0 (who was also a director in FFXI when it released in 2002), until he was replaced by Yoshida and put into the position of lead game designer (which, I'll grant, is still a good position, but he now has a different team of director and producers to respond to).

I'm not trying to blame FFXI for the disaster of 1.0 (as I actually have some respect for the game, without even having played it and admitting that it probably isn't for me), I'm putting some blame on FFXIV wanting to be like FFXI.

[GucciSan]

It failed cause it sucked, it didn't fail cause it was FFXI cause it wasn't FFXI even if it was trying to be that in any degree. It would be like saying Super Mario Sunshine sucks because it's trying to be Mario 64 and Mario 64 is outdated.

SE felt that because FFXI was successful, they could just emulate the success again while ignoring the innovations modern MMOs made. Thus FFXIV 1.0

[Cidel]

Can't believe I'm letting myself get sucked into this discussion, but-

There's probably some truth to XIV 1.0 failing due to trying to emulate some elements from XI, but in my humble opinion, that was far from the cause of the downfall of XIV 1.0. Yes, I see the documentary, I see what they're saying, and it is a sound explanation, but I can't help but feel like that's not the whole story either.

As someone who has played XIV from the start of 1.0 and spent time playing XI prior: there were actually very little similarities I could find between XI and XIV; I remember initially being disappointed by that realization. The only few things I recall of XIV 1.0 seemingly carrying over from XI were the races being basically spiritual successors of XI's (down to having no playable male MithrasMiqote or playable female GalkasRoegadyns), most of the same crafting classes (bonecraft seemingly got replaced by armorer), some monsters being updated models of XI's and... Really, that was all I saw...

I don't ever really recall anybody complaining about the game "trying to emulate" FFXI. Heck, there were no classic "jobs" to speak of that the franchise was known for until Yoshi-P took the reins. For the longest time there were no mounts, not even chocobos for the players. XIV 1.0 even tried to go out of its way to do a physical level for characters separate from each level of their classes. They were trying to flaunt Guildleves the same way they flaunted FATEs for ARR's release.

As far as I could tell, the actual criticisms I saw of XIV 1.0 were nothing that was borrowed from XI. The most prevalent complaints that I recall were as follows:

• The experience fatigue system to slow players' leveling speed if they were leveling a class "too fast/long without taking a break" in some misguided attempt at keeping "no-lifers" from pulling too far ahead of casuals.
• Leveling your physical and class levels were clunky.
• The equipment repair system was awful and required you to not only have the proper crafting class leveled to repair the gear, but carry throw-away mats specific to each type of gear (type of cloth, leather, ore, etc.) just to repair. And the NPCs to repair gear for you initially didn't even take it to 100%.
• "Copy-Paste" terrain.
• How graphics-intensive the game was and how hard it was for many computers to handle it.
• The Black Shroud.
• Big open zones full of nothing.
• There were quite a few monsters that were placed in areas that were way too high a level than they deserved to be, like a level 50 monster that could be dragged to the main city gates that would linger until somebody high enough would stop by and rid the newbies of it's presence. Some moderately-high monsters were placed in areas that would frequently see lower-level player traffic that could actually block passage (think about those high level Eureka mobs that are blocking your path and won't go away).
• I mentioned no mounts, right? Don't think we got the chocobo for quite some time.
• No Auction House/Market Boards/item Search Functions. If you wanted to sell something, you literally placed your retainers in wards that players had to physically visit and examine random retainers hoping to find the item they want being sold. Wards even had a cap on how many retainers could be placed inside. If all wards were filled, you couldn't sell anything via retainers. A search function was added after Yoshi-P took over, but it was still clunky and had limited ward space.
• There was no endgame for some time after launch. There were a handful of initial "Notorious Monsters" you could kill in a group for crafting mats, but I think you could count on one hand how many there were.
• The crafting system seemed... "Upside-down." For example, starting out you could craft some armor and equipment... But the raw mats (like thread, ingots and cloth) were for some reason a higher craft level than the armor you could actually make with it.
• Oh, Archers were limited by ammo, of course. And starting out I don't think stacks of items even went up to 99...

And that's only just what I recall right now; I know there was more. If you ask me, the game failed more because it was a glorified beta test/ incomplete game that they thought they could just patch the problems away eventually and a mish-mash of half-baked ideas, not because they decided they could emulate XI and have instant-success. Heck, I think if they even put effort into emulating even some things that worked for XI I'm willing to bet less people would have ragged on it.

[TheHeavenAbyss]

Snip

That's a good response. Yes, I heard some of the criticism 1.0 got. And I have to admit that I can't stand here pretending like I know better, because I didn't actually play either FFXI or 1.0, which is why I never said that FFXIV trying to emulate FFXI was the sole reason for failing, as that would be disingenous. There were other reasons, maybe even bigger reasons, sure, like the game feeling very incomplete (something they felt relatively confortable doing because they already had success with a FF MMO and thought they could just patch it later).

I can only base myself in the words of the developers themselves in documentaries/interviews like the one presented above (I mean, they're the ones who fixed it), where they admit that they thought they had this whole MMO thing figured out because of FFXI, got cocky and failed miserably because a lot of game design philosofies that worked before didn't work anymore. They're the ones saying it, not me. Which is why I said I don't blame the failure of 1.0 on it being like FFXI, because I don't even know how similar to it it was, but in trying to follow the design philosophies, which is what the developers' words suggested to me (I imagine that could refer to stuff like things being very grind-based or commands being organized in tabs instead of a hotbar).

I just fear that a desire to try to make more things like FFXI now will lead to similar mistakes going forward. Maybe it's not that big of a deal, but I don't think there's a problem in letting FFXIV enjoy its own gameplay identity either.

[HiroesX81]

id venture to say they were more making the job akin to its roots in the original games but all in all Im very happy with BLU. Would like that the spells were a little more varied and buffed insome ways but i think its a good implementation. I dont feel forced to adhere to a meta. Was fun running around and learning spells from mobs that werent in the intended spots the book suggested. Saved myself alot of trouble leveling up. Very nicely done. Want more spells too

[Sandpark]

If I want to level a job in Final Fantasy XIV over the course of a month, I can log in every day and spend 20-40 minutes doing the leveling roulette. If I want to level a new job in Final Fantasy XI over the course of a month, I can spend six hours every night sitting in the same spot in the same zone until it hurts to stand when I finally do stand back up. That's the difference.

No one ever had to convince me to stick it out just a little bit longer in Final Fantasy XIV because it will get better eventually. That's the difference.

There is a distinction between enjoying an activity and putting up with an activity in the thought that it will eventually lead to a reward. FFXIV is the former. FFXI is the latter.

You might get one or two levels in the roulette in 40 minutes. That's about a dungeon or two. Maybe it took you a month but I could get about 10 levels in 2-4 hours in vanilla XI. Six hours is either an over exaggeration or you really did not how to party efficiently.

No one ever had to convince me to stick it out just a bit longer in either Final Fantasy mmo on the promise it will get better. Both start out slow and don't get significantly better until about level 50. There is no difference.

I agree with you third point about distinction. I don't like slogging through fates or hundreds of fed ex quests like XIV. You don't like slogging through hundreds of enemies to level like in XI.

You are not right, you just have an opinion. Same as me.

When every post you write gets 999 likes, every gaming site states what you say, and XI gets shutdown ten years ago. Maybe, I will concede to your point.

Both games are good but for different types of audiences. Everyone has a favorite FF and a worse FF. Perhaps FFXI is the worst for you. Both FF mmos are in the top 5 FF for me personally.

[Mirakumi]

As an FFXI player I personally would have loved to see BLU apart of the raiding scene. I get that it's OP at low levels but 1k needles isn't that great at higher levels and what not. You can still adjust abilities to be resistant like most are currently. Blue could raid, it can't even raise so why not lol

[Bright-Flower]

On one hand, I can understand why fans of the blue mage job who wanted to 'main' it in normal content are disappointed.

At the same time I feel the game needs more side activities outside of the end game loot treadmill patch cycle. And limited jobs are an interesting way to do it. And I have a feeling the jobs selected for this system are ones they probably wouldn't have added to the game as a normal job anyway.

I don't see limited blue mage job as meaning 'you're never getting this as a normal job now because we made it a limited job.' I see it more as 'we probably weren't going to add this as a normal job anyway so here's a fun version of it that's limited but also faithful to older games.' We already have three casting dps so I think it would be a good while before we got another one anyway if at all.

They name dropped beastmaster as a possible second limited job, and that's another job I don't think they would be very keen of adding as a normal job either.

[Shougun]

SE felt that because FFXI was successful, they could just emulate the success again while ignoring the innovations modern MMOs made. Thus FFXIV 1.0

I remember being rougher with my wording (not intentionally) in the past and watching Fernehalwes talk about the feelings the team went through, oof... Got me in the feels lol. Not that I've ever intended hurt anyone - perhaps you could just say I was sloppeh-er (and younger), I mean I only post because I like the game (a good sign to the team I guess lol, the game is good, I like haha). Although I still believe feedback is important (even if it's "I don't like this"), obviously they admit some of the truth in the pain read about 1.0, but definitely have changed how I've tried to approach my frustrations and desires since a long while ago because of thoughts like that (I still complain, I just try to do it tactfully haha).

[Bright-Flower]

As an FFXI player I personally would have loved to see BLU apart of the raiding scene. I get that it's OP at low levels but 1k needles isn't that great at higher levels and what not. You can still adjust abilities to be resistant like most are currently. Blue could raid, it can't even raise so why not lol

It could raid. If they gave it a set rotation and job gauge like every other job and balanced it around a set tool kit, learing all their abilities by leveling up with a few thrown into job quests.

The current version of blue mage not so much. Trying to let it do both with one design isn't going to work out very well. They would need to restrict and rebalance it to fit into the end game raiding scene. And the work required to do that would defeat the purpose of making it a limited job in the first place.