As an FFXI player, thank you for Limited Jobs and BLU SE

[KokonoeAiyoko]

But it was. Developers have said it in documentaries. I've said it was not the only reason, because obviously it wasn't. But one of the big reasons was that the team was too confident in how FFXI was made and they just had to make more of the same, without having any idea of how the MMO market had changed. Maybe it was also poorly made as FFXI look-alike, but that doesn't contradict the "one of the big reasons it crashed and burned was that it was trying too hard to work like FFXI".

It failed cause it sucked, it didn't fail cause it was FFXI cause it wasn't FFXI even if it was trying to be that in any degree. It would be like saying Super Mario Sunshine sucks because it's trying to be Mario 64 and Mario 64 is outdated.

[GucciSan]

It failed cause it sucked, it didn't fail cause it was FFXI cause it wasn't FFXI even if it was trying to be that in any degree. It would be like saying Super Mario Sunshine sucks because it's trying to be Mario 64 and Mario 64 is outdated.

SE felt that because FFXI was successful, they could just emulate the success again while ignoring the innovations modern MMOs made. Thus FFXIV 1.0

[Cidel]

Can't believe I'm letting myself get sucked into this discussion, but-

There's probably some truth to XIV 1.0 failing due to trying to emulate some elements from XI, but in my humble opinion, that was far from the cause of the downfall of XIV 1.0. Yes, I see the documentary, I see what they're saying, and it is a sound explanation, but I can't help but feel like that's not the whole story either.

As someone who has played XIV from the start of 1.0 and spent time playing XI prior: there were actually very little similarities I could find between XI and XIV; I remember initially being disappointed by that realization. The only few things I recall of XIV 1.0 seemingly carrying over from XI were the races being basically spiritual successors of XI's (down to having no playable male MithrasMiqote or playable female GalkasRoegadyns), most of the same crafting classes (bonecraft seemingly got replaced by armorer), some monsters being updated models of XI's and... Really, that was all I saw...

I don't ever really recall anybody complaining about the game "trying to emulate" FFXI. Heck, there were no classic "jobs" to speak of that the franchise was known for until Yoshi-P took the reins. For the longest time there were no mounts, not even chocobos for the players. XIV 1.0 even tried to go out of its way to do a physical level for characters separate from each level of their classes. They were trying to flaunt Guildleves the same way they flaunted FATEs for ARR's release.

As far as I could tell, the actual criticisms I saw of XIV 1.0 were nothing that was borrowed from XI. The most prevalent complaints that I recall were as follows:

• The experience fatigue system to slow players' leveling speed if they were leveling a class "too fast/long without taking a break" in some misguided attempt at keeping "no-lifers" from pulling too far ahead of casuals.
• Leveling your physical and class levels were clunky.
• The equipment repair system was awful and required you to not only have the proper crafting class leveled to repair the gear, but carry throw-away mats specific to each type of gear (type of cloth, leather, ore, etc.) just to repair. And the NPCs to repair gear for you initially didn't even take it to 100%.
• "Copy-Paste" terrain.
• How graphics-intensive the game was and how hard it was for many computers to handle it.
• The Black Shroud.
• Big open zones full of nothing.
• There were quite a few monsters that were placed in areas that were way too high a level than they deserved to be, like a level 50 monster that could be dragged to the main city gates that would linger until somebody high enough would stop by and rid the newbies of it's presence. Some moderately-high monsters were placed in areas that would frequently see lower-level player traffic that could actually block passage (think about those high level Eureka mobs that are blocking your path and won't go away).
• I mentioned no mounts, right? Don't think we got the chocobo for quite some time.
• No Auction House/Market Boards/item Search Functions. If you wanted to sell something, you literally placed your retainers in wards that players had to physically visit and examine random retainers hoping to find the item they want being sold. Wards even had a cap on how many retainers could be placed inside. If all wards were filled, you couldn't sell anything via retainers. A search function was added after Yoshi-P took over, but it was still clunky and had limited ward space.
• There was no endgame for some time after launch. There were a handful of initial "Notorious Monsters" you could kill in a group for crafting mats, but I think you could count on one hand how many there were.
• The crafting system seemed... "Upside-down." For example, starting out you could craft some armor and equipment... But the raw mats (like thread, ingots and cloth) were for some reason a higher craft level than the armor you could actually make with it.
• Oh, Archers were limited by ammo, of course. And starting out I don't think stacks of items even went up to 99...

And that's only just what I recall right now; I know there was more. If you ask me, the game failed more because it was a glorified beta test/ incomplete game that they thought they could just patch the problems away eventually and a mish-mash of half-baked ideas, not because they decided they could emulate XI and have instant-success. Heck, I think if they even put effort into emulating even some things that worked for XI I'm willing to bet less people would have ragged on it.

[TheHeavenAbyss]

Snip

That's a good response. Yes, I heard some of the criticism 1.0 got. And I have to admit that I can't stand here pretending like I know better, because I didn't actually play either FFXI or 1.0, which is why I never said that FFXIV trying to emulate FFXI was the sole reason for failing, as that would be disingenous. There were other reasons, maybe even bigger reasons, sure, like the game feeling very incomplete (something they felt relatively confortable doing because they already had success with a FF MMO and thought they could just patch it later).

I can only base myself in the words of the developers themselves in documentaries/interviews like the one presented above (I mean, they're the ones who fixed it), where they admit that they thought they had this whole MMO thing figured out because of FFXI, got cocky and failed miserably because a lot of game design philosofies that worked before didn't work anymore. They're the ones saying it, not me. Which is why I said I don't blame the failure of 1.0 on it being like FFXI, because I don't even know how similar to it it was, but in trying to follow the design philosophies, which is what the developers' words suggested to me (I imagine that could refer to stuff like things being very grind-based or commands being organized in tabs instead of a hotbar).

I just fear that a desire to try to make more things like FFXI now will lead to similar mistakes going forward. Maybe it's not that big of a deal, but I don't think there's a problem in letting FFXIV enjoy its own gameplay identity either.

[Cidel]

I can only base myself in the words of the developers themselves in documentaries/interviews like the one presented above (I mean, they're the ones who fixed it), where they admit that they thought they had this whole MMO thing figured out because of FFXI, got cocky and failed miserably because a lot of game design philosofies that worked before didn't work anymore.

Oh, I understand that you specifically don't mean to pin the entire blame on XIV 1.0's failure on them trying to "copy" XI, but I also know that many people do- as if XIV 1.0 was designed to be XI 2.0; it wasn't. If anything, I was trying to set the record straight on that misconception.

Now as for the fact that the devs do reference XI in their interviews:

FFXI was the whole drive behind SE wanting to do a second online game and rushing it, thinking they had it figured out. That doesn't mean the FFXI itself is responsible and I never said it was.

This is my take-away from the interviews as well. It's less of "we tried to emulate XI and it failed XIV 1.0," but more "we made assumptions of what we could get away with because of our success with XI and the excuse of the Final Fantasy franchise name."

Unfortunately, you can see based on even just some replies in this thread that the default reaction of a part of XIV's playerbase is to ridicule FFXI at every opportunity and somehow find fault in it every time the devs in charge of XIV make a bad decision. Like, for example, Eureka:

maybe because XI and XIV belong to two vastly different generations of MMO that simply don't mix? So many are just sick and tired of the nostalgia crowd wanting to shovelhorn in outdated mechanics and elements, especially after the mess that is Eureka

First of all, I have absolutely no argument against the first sentence of that quote, and actually wholly agree with it. My issue is the part I italicized and is a reoccurring misconception I keep seeing being brought up about how terribly-informed the devs have been about designing Eureka. Does it borrow some elements from XI? Yes. The worst elements that most rational fans of XI never wanted to see brought back from the dead. In this situation the "nostalgia crowd" must be the devs themselves because they hand-picked the aspects of XI most vets would cringe at amidst the mass of other, more reasonable requests like XI's glamour system or endgame content such as Nyzule Isle. It's as if- many years from now, should SE make another FF online game, they hand-pick this BLU debacle and glamour system circa 2016 as the things to emulate from XIV. Suddenly, the players of that new online FF game turn around and claim that putting those unpalatable elements of XIV into the new game is the fault of the nostalgic XIV crowd...


And just because this is a BLU thread too, after talking about 1.0, I've come to realize something. This limited BLU in many ways is an allegory of FFXIV 1.0. Think about it:
-Both were released seemingly incomplete with the promise of "we can just update it later."
-Both had a lot of outcry from the pre-launch about the direction.
-Both have arguably minimal (if any) "endgame," with the first point being the rationalization.
-Both have "stopgates" of sorts implemented to attempt to dissuade players from getting to said "endgame" to realize there isn't much of anything there (primal/trial spell RNG vs. exp fatigue system).
- Both imposed seemingly pointless restrictions on the basis that they thought they were doing something "different."

[TheHeavenAbyss]

Yeah, it probably isn't fair to judge FFXI based on how the devs pick bad elements from it to try them on FFXIV (talking about whatever they put in 1.0 and stuff they put in Eureka). I can agree with that, because as I said before I believe FFXI is doing something right to have so many loyal fans, and I quite enjoy FFXI's story.

However, when you say:

Does it borrow some elements from XI? Yes. The worst elements that most rational fans of XI never wanted to see brought back from the dead. In this situation the "nostalgia crowd" must be the devs themselves because they hand-picked the aspects of XI most vets would cringe at amidst the mass of other, more reasonable requests like XI's glamour system or endgame content such as Nyzule Isle.

Isn't this still a somewhat good reason for players to be worried about the idea of making "FFXIV more like FFXI"? Since, according to this, the devs have shown they're not that good at choosing the good elements of FFXI to apply in FFXIV (like the "you lose EXP when you die" thing in Eureka, which I'm not a particular fan of).

[Cidel]

Isn't this still a somewhat good reason for players to be worried about the idea of making "FFXIV more like FFXI"? Since, according to this, the devs have shown they're not that good at choosing the good elements of FFXI to apply in FFXIV (like the "you lose EXP when you die" thing in Eureka, which I'm not a particular fan of).

Oh, for sure. Now I'm not even confident the devs even have a clue what the XI fans liked about XI. And personally, I do not want XIV made "more like XI" (nor is that feasible), but simply that there are successful aspects and content of XI that could be replicated here.

[Deceptus]

And just because this is a BLU thread too, after talking about 1.0, I've come to realize something. This limited BLU in many ways is an allegory of FFXIV 1.0. Think about it:
-Both were released seemingly incomplete with the promise of "we can just update it later."
-Both had a lot of outcry from the pre-launch about the direction.
-Both have arguably minimal (if any) "endgame," with the first point being the rationalization.
-Both have "stopgates" of sorts implemented to attempt to dissuade players from getting to said "endgame" to realize there isn't much of anything there (primal/trial spell RNG vs. exp fatigue system).
- Both imposed seemingly pointless restrictions on the basis that they thought they were doing something "different."

Agree 100%.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Can't believe I'm letting myself get sucked into this discussion, but-

There's probably some truth to XIV 1.0 failing due to trying to emulate some elements from XI, but in my humble opinion, that was far from the cause of the downfall of XIV 1.0. Yes, I see the documentary, I see what they're saying, and it is a sound explanation, but I can't help but feel like that's not the whole story either.

As someone who has played XIV from the start of 1.0 and spent time playing XI prior: there were actually very little similarities I could find between XI and XIV; I remember initially being disappointed by that realization. The only few things I recall of XIV 1.0 seemingly carrying over from XI were the races being basically spiritual successors of XI's (down to having no playable male MithrasMiqote or playable female GalkasRoegadyns), most of the same crafting classes (bonecraft seemingly got replaced by armorer), some monsters being updated models of XI's and... Really, that was all I saw...

I don't ever really recall anybody complaining about the game "trying to emulate" FFXI. Heck, there were no classic "jobs" to speak of that the franchise was known for until Yoshi-P took the reins. For the longest time there were no mounts, not even chocobos for the players. XIV 1.0 even tried to go out of its way to do a physical level for characters separate from each level of their classes. They were trying to flaunt Guildleves the same way they flaunted FATEs for ARR's release.

As far as I could tell, the actual criticisms I saw of XIV 1.0 were nothing that was borrowed from XI. The most prevalent complaints that I recall were as follows:

• The experience fatigue system to slow players' leveling speed if they were leveling a class "too fast/long without taking a break" in some misguided attempt at keeping "no-lifers" from pulling too far ahead of casuals.
• Leveling your physical and class levels were clunky.
• The equipment repair system was awful and required you to not only have the proper crafting class leveled to repair the gear, but carry throw-away mats specific to each type of gear (type of cloth, leather, ore, etc.) just to repair. And the NPCs to repair gear for you initially didn't even take it to 100%.
• "Copy-Paste" terrain.
• How graphics-intensive the game was and how hard it was for many computers to handle it.
• The Black Shroud.
• Big open zones full of nothing.
• There were quite a few monsters that were placed in areas that were way too high a level than they deserved to be, like a level 50 monster that could be dragged to the main city gates that would linger until somebody high enough would stop by and rid the newbies of it's presence. Some moderately-high monsters were placed in areas that would frequently see lower-level player traffic that could actually block passage (think about those high level Eureka mobs that are blocking your path and won't go away).
• I mentioned no mounts, right? Don't think we got the chocobo for quite some time.
• No Auction House/Market Boards/item Search Functions. If you wanted to sell something, you literally placed your retainers in wards that players had to physically visit and examine random retainers hoping to find the item they want being sold. Wards even had a cap on how many retainers could be placed inside. If all wards were filled, you couldn't sell anything via retainers. A search function was added after Yoshi-P took over, but it was still clunky and had limited ward space.
• There was no endgame for some time after launch. There were a handful of initial "Notorious Monsters" you could kill in a group for crafting mats, but I think you could count on one hand how many there were.
• The crafting system seemed... "Upside-down." For example, starting out you could craft some armor and equipment... But the raw mats (like thread, ingots and cloth) were for some reason a higher craft level than the armor you could actually make with it.
• Oh, Archers were limited by ammo, of course. And starting out I don't think stacks of items even went up to 99...

And that's only just what I recall right now; I know there was more. If you ask me, the game failed more because it was a glorified beta test/ incomplete game that they thought they could just patch the problems away eventually and a mish-mash of half-baked ideas, not because they decided they could emulate XI and have instant-success. Heck, I think if they even put effort into emulating even some things that worked for XI I'm willing to bet less people would have ragged on it.

Thank Altana for this post. I was about to write a big wall post in my sheer frustration at people trying to rewrite history with ignorance on the subject by people who either weren't there or who didn't pay attention to either game enough.

FFXI has absolutely nothing to do with why FFXIV failed because it didn't even appeal to FFXI fans. It doesn't even matter what SE says at this point cause SE has said a lot of things regarding FFXIV 1.0, but what we do know is people still pay for FFXI to this day but didn't want to pay for FFXIV 1.0.

[Shougun]

SE felt that because FFXI was successful, they could just emulate the success again while ignoring the innovations modern MMOs made. Thus FFXIV 1.0

I remember being rougher with my wording (not intentionally) in the past and watching Fernehalwes talk about the feelings the team went through, oof... Got me in the feels lol. Not that I've ever intended hurt anyone - perhaps you could just say I was sloppeh-er (and younger), I mean I only post because I like the game (a good sign to the team I guess lol, the game is good, I like haha). Although I still believe feedback is important (even if it's "I don't like this"), obviously they admit some of the truth in the pain read about 1.0, but definitely have changed how I've tried to approach my frustrations and desires since a long while ago because of thoughts like that (I still complain, I just try to do it tactfully haha).