Blue mage is a waste of potential, change my mind.

[Rita1989]

To be fair you can solo Tam-Tara at level 16 as long as you have 1000 needles it's just not very fun and you don't get any xp for it.

[SmokeyTheSequel]

Pretty much the whole job is just meant to do the carnival with and to improve your scoring. Its wows M+ dungeon esport mentality in the form of ffxiv. They have been trying to make this "a thing" since POTD. Carnival Is what's its end game is all about. You can do all of them without the need of primal skills. Those are just extra fluff to keep you busy.

[Raikai]

You're completely right

I really enjoy BLU for what it is, and I don't think it's necessary, at least for me, to make it into a "regular" job. But... and a BIG but...

You reach level 50, okay! Ready to go after the more advanced spells... Damn, you need to group up. That goes straightforward against the design they proposed.

Thereforth lies another problem on top of the current problem: Right now you can look for parties in the duty finder, but as soon as people have their spellbooks filled or just get tired of trying, it will be harder to find such parties, and there it is... A lot of missing spells and the only way to get them is to beg for a friend to carry you... There's only so much patience of such friend to carry through the very narrow % chances of a primal hardmode.

A solution? Do like you advertised and make some spells really overpowered, so you can actually solo the places. And rise up the % learning. Not asking for a 100%, but it's very disheartening to spend 40min trying to solo your way to a last boss and never get the spell. Edit: I've backtracked a few posts and saw someone arguing that why make BLU overpowered when you can do it already at any lv70 job? - The answer lies within the job itself. There is a reason for Blue Mages to run old content, to obtain spells. The only reason any other job got to run old content is mostly a specific glamour they want. Currently the survivability is okay, but the spells hit for too low to be worth a damn against trash mobs and bosses.

Also, just to add: Please, unlock MORE endgame content for BLU. The Masked Carnivale is very fun, but outside of weekly rewards, which can lead up to about 40min of gameplay to get through all stages, there's basically nothing else to do as a Blue Mage.

Why BLU can't run solo PotD when it seems to be the perfect challenge for it?

Why BLU can't enter Eureka and auto-sync to 70 (for stats bump), when it seems to be the perfect place for the job?

Why BLU can't cap at 70 like every other job still keeping the restrictions it has - so you can at least have more options of content to do (dailies, sidequests, etc)?

I really think the way Blue Mage was thought of is nice and different, but I honestly hope that this 4.5 stage is more of a test drive and the job will be able to do more than currently at 5.0.

[wereotter]

Why BLU can't cap at 70 like every other job still keeping the restrictions it has - so you can at least have more options of content to do (dailies, sidequests, etc)?

Honestly, probably because they wanted to keep it out of end-game raids since blue mage can enter any content with a premade party. Their argument was "Blue mage will be too powerful if you can just use Lv. 5 Death on Omega M/F!" which would be valid if they didn't already prove that they can and do make certain enemies immune to those types of skills (Doom, Missile, and Tail Screw)

Though also, Blue Mage would probably be the least desired job for end-game content because it's damage is pitiful, and will only get worse as it continues to level up with weapons that have no added base damage and no stats.

[Raikai]

Honestly, probably because they wanted to keep it out of end-game raids since blue mage can enter any content with a premade party. Their argument was "Blue mage will be too powerful if you can just use Lv. 5 Death on Omega M/F!" which would be valid if they didn't already prove that they can and do make certain enemies immune to those types of skills (Doom, Missile, and Tail Screw)

Though also, Blue Mage would probably be the least desired job for end-game content because it's damage is pitiful, and will only get worse as it continues to level up with weapons that have no added base damage and no stats.

Yeah, makes sense... And their point of the lv.5 Death argument is SO bad, because any final fantasy veteran knows that such spells have always been worthless on most of the bosses. I actually think that outside of Quina (frogs) I don't remember any instance of a Blue Mage character that was so OP that its presence was the best you could bring for any boss.

Blue Mages for lv70 raids... like you said, horrible damage. White Wind heals for a lot, but isn't anywhere as reliable as a full healer's kit. As a tank it also would fall short. Maybe it would be a good addition to spam Missile and Bad Breath in dungeon trash but that's all I can think it would be OP to do.

[Kowen]

BLU is my favorite Final Fantasy job. The open world spell hunting experience was super nostalgic, so I absolutely agree they nailed that part.

That fun only lasted a couple days though... it seems like a huge shame that they put so much work into making visual assets for the job, but didn't just take a little more time to balance it and give it a real rotation.

[Fyce]

Except it’s a backwards implementation: a level 50 job soloing a level 16 dungeon for a level 20 skill to progress in their job quests (and their purpose, since all BLU boils down to is the Masked Carnivale, which is locked behind your level 50 job quest).

Your sole defense you keep spouting in response to me is backwards, and it’s illogical. How much sense does it make to say “You can still solo the level 16 dungeon for the skill you must have to unlock your level 20 job quest when you finally hit level 50 on BLU”? Very little. It’s a backwards implementation. You should be able to solo Tam Tara at level ~16 on a job that the developers promoted as a job for solo play. That would make far more sense, considering they chose a skill from that dungeon to lock your job quest progression behind (that the only alternative source would probably be the Mindflayer ARR S rank, if he uses it).

While I’m certain the developers are aware players stock up on job quests and do them at a later date (e.g., not doing SB job quests until you actually hit level 70), I don’t think that was their design intention (i.e., “We expected BLUs to wait until they were level 50 and actually do their job quests, because we put in skills that may require doing duties for, and BLU may not be able to successfully solo them at level”). And if they were to tell players “just unsync lmao”, the playerbase would probably just shake their head. It’s counterintuitive.

Okay? That doesn't answer my question as to why my personal opinion would change the fact that you can go learn skills by doing unsync content. You just can. I don't know what to tell you. I understand that you don't like that possibility, but that's not my point. You completly missed it. But don't worry, you're not the first one.

I’m sure you’re well aware that OP was talking more so about the level-capped 5-star skills. You chose to nit-pick Mind Blast and Glower.

Those (the 5-star skills) cannot be obtained via solo methods or other methods (sans Ifrit AFTER they fix the bug, and maybe Garuda—still gonna have to “lol unsync” them though), and they require party play. You have to party up with other players in order to do them. And it probalby won’t be prudent to be all BLUs either. Someone is going to be a level 70 (probably a healer or a RDM for raising purposes should they be needed), and, at that point, the 70 is carrying the 1~7 BLUs.

No? OP specifically mentionned the 24 (it's actually 25) skills from Dungeons/Trials. Do I need to quote it again?
I'm well aware that these 5 star skills cannot be obtained solo. But saying that the "18 (24-6) dungeon/trials" share the same fate is just wrong.
Also, I didn't nitpick two skills, they were mere examples to prove my point. If you show me 24 marbles, a few of them are green, the rest is red, and tell me "all of these marbles are red", I just have to show you one that isn't to contradict you what you are saying. It's logic 101. That's exactly what I did with OP's argument (in a snarking way, because the initial postulate was ridiculous to begin with). I never argued anything else.
Saying that you need a party to get all the dungeon/trial skills is simply incorrect. I don't know how else to tell you that.

Skill names and owerall location included in this spoiler:

And for the specific case Ram's voice, Dragon's Voice, The Look, High Voltage, and Plaincracker are labeled as "dungeon/trial" skills here, that require a party, but can be acquired solo on the overworld or the Carnivale. So, again, including these in the "24 skills you cannot obtain solo" is simply and factually wrong. I really don't know why anyone would argue otherwise or argue against that objective fact.

I’ll say it again: backwards implementation.

You are being pedantic, because you keep coming back to Tam-Tara. But you haven’t addressed when I’ve brought up the ARR Ex primals, or even the Hildebrand trial. Is Enkidu susceptible to any of the “OP” skills? I find it unlikely that you can successfully defeat them with a mega-buffed Self-Destruct or Final Sting (and you won’t have Missile for HP widdling, since Missile is locked behind Enkidu). Same with the Ex primals. BLU, in its current iteration, will never be able to solo them. I’m curious how well a party of 8 BLUs would fair—I think they’d probably struggle, because their sustain seems fairly weak to me, and the lack of a Raise would be detrimental. They could maybe do it... with a lot of limping. But I wonder if they would comfortably make the enrages.

Efficiency-wise, having a level 70 carry a group of BLUs is still better, especially since the 5-star skills have a low drop rate regardless if you do 1 70/1 BLU or 8 BLUs. Someone stated that they think it would be nice to have the acquisition rate of the 5-stars increase if the group was doing it “properly” with all BLUs, and I have to agree. That would be an incentive to do content in a party of all BLUs (outside of novelty’s sake) as opposed to doing 1 70/1 BLU.

Holy Heck. I am not being pedantic. People say that 24 skills cannot be obtained solo when some of them can, meaning that 24 is not an accurate number, thus, a factually wrong argument. That's all I'm saying. I don't care about your own personal preference about how you'd want to be able to solo everything while level sync'd or that going unsync is "backward implementation". This is completly irrelevant to my point. People say "these skills require a party" when it's not true for a lot of them.
Just how many times do I need to repeat what my point is? People say I'm "angry" when I post. I'm actually facepalming very, very hard out of the despair that get to me when I repeat stuff dozens of times and people still continue to get it wrong.

Not all skills have alternative sources—Shiva’s skill can only be acquired in her Ex; compare that to Titan, where you can at least learn Mountain Buster from the HM as opposed to the Ex (however, you cannot solo Titan HM, because of the gaol—you have to have someone else in there with you, usually a level 70 because Double BLU would take an unnecessarily long amount of time to do Titan HM; Story mode would be more doable with Double BLU, perhaps, if you can learn Mountain Buster from story mode, but I digress).

And if SE doesn’t want people to “misunderstand”, perhaps they shouldn’t come off as disingenuous about things. Claiming that a job cannot function within the current job system because it would be “too overpowered” or “too broken” carries the connotation that the job would actually be OP and/or broken. Not that it would actually hit like a wet noodle and struggle with sustain, as well as have ridiculous restrictions on some skills (again, Level 5 Petrify).

I never said that all of these dungeons/trials skills could be learn solo or via alternatives methods. I said "a dozen of them".
Half of the skills OP said are impossible to get solo can be obtained solo. If that's not enough for you to disprove their claims, I don't know what is.

Their excuse (and that’s all it is) falls apart the minute you bring up that you cannot learn all the skills from alternative sources. Some of the alternative sources are still locked in duties that cannot be unsynced and steamrolled solo by a BLU (e.g., Flame Thrower comes from the first or second boss in Keeper of the Lake—a level 50 dungeon) or from, ironically, mobs in other expansions (e.g., you can learn Tail Screw from the scorpion mobs right outside of Ala Ghanna in The Peaks).

Doing some of the level 50 dungeons solo can take far more time than necessary. Because, again, this job doesn’t hit any harder than any other level 50 job in i130 gear. Its only saving grace is Missile—which is another skill locked behind a level 50 trial (and only a level 50 trial)—and perhaps Tail Screw... which is locked behind a level 50 dungeon or a level 60+ mob in a Stormblood area. I don’t think Self-Destruct or Final Sting would do enough damage to murder one of the Keeper of the Lake bosses without first spending a lot of time widdling down its health via methods that don’t involve Missile if one doesn’t have that skill (because Flame Thrower from the first boss hurts, and Mighty Guard has a harsh penalty that will make the fight take even longer). You have to consider efficiency.

As mentioned previously, you also cannot learn Mountain Buster solo outside of Titan Ex. His NM and HM cannot be solo’d because of the gaol (though the gaol won’t wipe you in Ex, which also seems backwards, but good luck soloing Titan EX on a BLU as it is now).

Read again. Please. And do it carefully. Actually, I'll write the tl;dr for you. Sorry, I can't do much better: If you say to SE "25 skills cannot be acquired solo", they can answer "that's not true, some of them can". If you still don't understand what I'm saying, and why I'm saying it, I'm sorry but this is as far as I can go. I don't know how to make it more clear.

And yes, you can get the skill solo in the Keeper of the lake. And no, you don't have to "first spending a lot of time widdling down its health [blahblahblah Efficency].", just Doom it. Solo obtainable skill. Same for High Voltage. Just Doom it (T2). Same for Diamondback. Just Doom it (Steps of Faith's add).

I’m guessing this is a reference to Gordias? I don’t know how many times I have to state that Gordias was poorly tested and poorly tuned, and that was 100% the fault of the development team—that’s what happens when you do all your testing on God Mode or just test individual mechanics without taking into consideration the entire fight. They even admitted that Gordias’ failure was due to their failure to properly test it. Unfortunately, the damage was already done, and Midas (which a lot of raiders loved Brute Justice) suffered.

That being said, the raid scene has since recovered... yet we’re still on Creator difficulty. I think Final Omega is just slightly above Alexander Prime. At least we have Ultimate, I guess...

Yoshida often refers to people asking for "harder raids/easier raids" to basically say that we don't know what we want. Or, at least, that we don't know how to ask for it properly.
And he isn't wrong on that one.

The job plays poorly. Certainly not “overpowered” enough that it couldn’t be/shouldn’t be a fully functional job that can function like and play with the other jobs without these silly DF restrictions. The only thing “overpowered” is wrecking mobs below level 40 with 1,000 Needles, which soon loses its novelty once you hit level 50.

If you think that being able to wipe any trash mob pulls in dungeons, and instantly kill some bosses isn't overpowered enough, okay. This stuff can completly ruin any player experiencing a dungeon for the first time. If that's not something you care about, then okay. I do.

I’ll pass on an encore of the condescending, fictional story that I’ve already provided a counter to.

I already commented on your nit-picking of Tam-Tara and the “just unsync it” excuses. I am not going to reiterate it here.

I guess we'll see in the future who was right. /schrug

(To be honest, I hope I'm wrong, and that SE won't use people's poor arguments to badly answer their concerns, but at the same time it could be the biggest and well deserved "I told you so" after all the hate I'm getting...)

So, you’re saying you see zero difference between a level 50 BLU soloing a level 50 trial, and a level 50 BLU unsycning a level 16 dungeon? Or a level 70 unsyncing anything below their level? While some fights are challenging for some level 70s to solo (T9 is a wonderful example of this), at least there is a challenge involved. Just like there would be a challenge involved in a level 50 BLU soloing T9. There is no challenge in a level 50 BLU soloing Tam-Tara. Just like there is no challenge in having a level 70 faceroll the ARR Ex primals.
btw, with the Golems, you can blow up the meteors that drop and mitigate through the explosions so that you only have to deal with one golem. It takes a bit of finesse to do, but it is doable.

I don’t know how to make you see that one is black and one is white. There is a difference between soloing at level and steamrolling while over-leveled.

No, that's not what I'm saying. You basically want a god mode on your BLU to be able to solo everything. I'm saying that I don't see why it's different from going in any ARR content with a level 70.
Please, if you are going to answer "I don't want a god mode!", then you'll have to explain EXACTLY how you could solo anything level sync'ed with a Blue Mage without basically being invulnerable and dealing insane amount of damage to be able to meet DPS checks.

This comment is irrelevant. Objectively, I wasn’t talking about BLUs reaching current level cap and participating in current content solo. If they aren’t going to be a proper job and be able to participate in content with the other jobs, there’s little reason for them to be able to be at current cap. But why does that mean they have to be as powerful as a wet noodle and unable to solo content that is at their level?

They’re capped at level 50 and require level 70s to carry them through level 50 content.

I agree, it was beyond the point. But still, SE said that they are going to raise BLU's level. If BLU reached Lv.80 during Shadowbringer, then your idea of BLU being a god-like job is an issue.

Not a lot of level 50 BLUs do Tam-Tara for the sake of just soloing it. Outside of skill acquisition, there’s no reason to: there’s no reward, challenge, or accomplishment in doing it—you steamroll it just like a level 70 would. However, being able to actually go into Tam-Tara alone at level 16~17 and solo it would at least offer some semblance of a challenge. It’s something no other job could do at level 16~17.

What challenge? Being able to solo it means that you can tank what a tank can tank, that you can heal what a healer can heal, and can deal the damage of -at least- two people combined.
And regarding damage, it also means that you should be able to resist to shared mechanics. Ie: taking a Nidhogg shared Ahk Morn in the face solo. You should also be able to resist wipe mechanics based on the position of multiple members, since you are alone. For example, in O12S, against Omega M/F, if you bring them together while they need to be taken appart, they buff themselves and do INSANE amount of damage. Your idea of what a BLU should be able to do has to be able to resist these kind of mechanics.

EDIT: Quotting myself from another thread:

-----

I don't know why I even bother. Answer what you want, I don't care anymore. You guys won (everyone who tried to shoot me down, not just the two I quoted).

I wanted people to use proper arguments by arguing against the bad ones in order not to give ammo to SE to shoot them down, was called a white knight and a troll for doing so. A few people tried to argue the same things as I did, without much success unfortunatly. The official forum's echo chamber is quite strong.

Either you (the forums) or me will be able to make quite a big "I told you so" quite soon. I sincerely hope, for the sake of the game, that you will. But if I am the one to make it... boy would it be deserved.

Bye.

I'm not playing the victim card, I'm just fed up. Won't argue about BLU anymore. Continue complaining about the stuff you think is relevant.

Just one last for the road:

What, in your mind, would be a "good" argument?

Good freaking question. If only it didn't came way too late. And if only people actually did care about good arguments.
Besides, don't you know? I'm just a troll and a white knight. You won't get anything from my answers. So go ask someone else.

Because you haven't meaningfully answered what content a BLU can solo that no other job can, aside from Masked Carnivale which was tailor-made for BLU. Any job at 50 can unsynch Tam-Tara, for instance.

You don't even say why that would be relevant, you imply that would make for a "good" argument, you arbitrarily put aside the most obvious and relevant answer to your question, you obviously don't think that leveling is a "meaningfull" answer even if it's true that BLU is better at leveling solo that any other job (MSQ's EXP is not job dependant, and often does require group play to progress)... See, that's the kind of stuff I'm fed up with. People don't want good arguments, they just want to argue.
Find someone else, I pass.

Hypocrite.

Troll.
You know exactly what your question was meant to do. And it was not to get "good arguments". You deliberatly asked a question in a tricky way by putting aside the actual answer(s) in order to be sure that I wouldn't be able answer it properly. That's complete dishonesty and the very reason why I'm stopping this whole joke of a debate.
Think of that as hypocrisy if you want, I don't care. At least I know how I argue.

SE did rule out the "solo job" argument by speaking about party play. That's true. That's a fact. That's verifiable.
Not all skills that the Grimoire list as "dungeon/trial" skill are only obtainable by grouping. That's true. That's a fact. That's verifiable.
Even when I made up hypothetical "SE answers" when answering HyoMinPark, it was based on multiple precedent. SE do avoid answering questions by picking specific arguments -bad ones- that people make. They do it all the time. That's true. That's a fact. That's verifiable.

If warning people about the potential bad consequences of their innacurate or flat our wrong statements makes me a white knight, a troll and a hypocrite when I'm finally fed up of the stuff they throw at me and quit as a result, then so be it. Call me whatever you want.

You know... I had a post all written out to you, but really, what’s the point in arguing with a brick wall? I know a pointless endeavor when I see one. Your point when you came into this thread wasn’t to “argue facts” or “prove that NOT ALL of the skills are locked behind dungeons”; you were just being snarky with your comment:
Nothing more, nothing less.
I will just say this, though: you should probably lay off the condescension in your posts. Maybe then people would be more receptive to what you say.
Comments like this also don’t help you.

Maybe I wouldn't be so snarky if people stopped spreading lies and using pityful/obnoxious arguing methods. You know, when you have to repeat your point dozens of times because people keep getting it wrong on purpose just to be able to argue something completly off the mark in return, it does tend to get on your nerves. Well, at least on mine. Also, when I started to present my points (not in this thread) on a neutral tone, guess what it did? Absolutly nothing different from when I'm being "snarky and condescending". I actually answered to you quite neutrally too at first. Did that prevent you from going multiple times completly off the rails and starting to speak about stuff completly unrelated to my point? No, it didn't. So don't give me that kind of advice if you know very well that it does nothing since yourself did pretty much the same thing everyone else did regardless of the tone I used to speak to you personally.

that doesn’t address the ones who don’t have alternatives (or whose alternatives are in another castle, so to speak), which I noticed that you continued to avoid in your replies to me.

Because it had absolutly NOTHING to do with the point I was making. I didn't avoid answering to you, I tried to get you back on track about what I started to talk about initially: telling someone (in a snarky way, but then properly explained) that the figure they used is objectively wrong. Gosh, I just explained it to you in one of the biggest wall of text I ever made on these forums AND YOU STILL DIDN'T GET IT.
No, 24 skills don't require group play. The exact figure is 14. THAT'S MY ONLY POINT.

Sorry... I can't... I'll just... I'll just go now. Thank you for making my point about why I should simply leave. I shouldn't have made "just one last for the road"...

[Dualgunner]

What, in your mind, would be a "good" argument? Because you haven't meaningfully answered what content a BLU can solo that no other job can, aside from Masked Carnivale which was tailor-made for BLU. Any job at 50 can unsynch Tam-Tara, for instance.

[HyoMinPark]

Okay? That doesn't answer my question

You know... I had a post all written out to you, but really, what’s the point in arguing with a brick wall? I know a pointless endeavor when I see one. Your point when you came into this thread wasn’t to “argue facts” or “prove that NOT ALL of the skills are locked behind dungeons”; you were just being snarky with your comment:

Sorry to hear that you have trouble doing Tam Tara solo at level 50. Or that it's too hard to cast Doom on some bosses.

Would you like some tips?

Nothing more, nothing less.


I will just say this, though: you should probably lay off the condescension in your posts. Maybe then people would be more receptive to what you say.

I'm not playing the victim card, I'm just fed up. Won't argue about BLU anymore. Continue complaining about the stuff you think is relevant.

Comments like this also don’t help you.

[MrKimper]

What, in your mind, would be a "good" argument? Because you haven't meaningfully answered what content a BLU can solo that no other job can, aside from Masked Carnivale which was tailor-made for BLU. Any job at 50 can unsynch Tam-Tara, for instance.

That BLU has been implemented wonderfully, has no issues to it, and was never advertised as a solo only job and that SE has perfectly implemented the way BLU should be.