Blue Mage is a masterpiece of game design.

[Zephera]

For an MMO to be successful, it needs players. And for that, it needs to understand that different players have different legitimate tastes and legitimate expectations. It also need to have more long term goals, and difficulty is the shortest timesink of all.

Timesinks aren't actually a very good idea these days though. Gamers are spoiled for choice on games that give rewards in much less time, lots of free ones too that can reward you pretty quick like Path of Exile. It's a serious challenge for an MMO to retain casual players through timesinks, they'll get bored and leave to find a quick fix. Timesinks only worked well in the past because you had relatively limited choice for quality games in certain genres, you practically couldn't lose the casual players because that was all they had at the time.

I agree that stagnation is a major issue though, but I think the best way to solve that would be to have a massive influx of fresh content released at a quicker pace. Unfortunately this isn't going to happen with the budget any MMO these days has. BLU is good for the novelty value but that will die off as it falls into stagnation waiting to be drip fed new content like everything else in MMO's these days. It's a real shame.

[Jandor]

Timesinks aren't actually a very good idea these days though.

Timesinks are a great idea, from a player retention point of view anyway, you've just got to disguise it properly at the beginning so that players get far enough along for the sunk cost fallacy to kick in.

[Zephera]

Timesinks are a great idea, from a player retention point of view anyway, you've just got to disguise it properly at the beginning so that players get far enough along for the sunk cost fallacy to kick in.

That's a good point on how a lot of companies try to do it these days. Doesn't always work though, if the players see through it it becomes pretty unpopular. I do know from WoW that the timesinks tied with the RNG seem to be big complaints driving away players from their latest expansion, at least among other issues as well.

[Shurrikhan]

That's a good point on how a lot of companies try to do it these days. Doesn't always work though, if the players see through it it becomes pretty unpopular. I do know from WoW that the timesinks tied with the RNG seem to be big complaints driving away players from their latest expansion, at least among other issues as well.

MMO communities in general are getting harder to trick in that regard. For WoW's... you could damn near convince them that a stringent gear-check fight is immoral design ("timesink") practice because of how sensitive their gag reflex has gotten to all things to artificially prolong content longevity. There's plenty that hypercritical posters there could 'trick' in the other direction.

[Reynhart]

I agree that stagnation is a major issue though, but I think the best way to solve that would be to have a massive influx of fresh content released at a quicker pace.

Unless you include some random elements into your content (Random dungeon layout, non scripted fights, random bosses, etc...) or allow some player driven content, nothing can stay fresh until the dev team is ready to release the next content. Timsesinks give you a goal, something to do when you wait for the next patch. What could be a problem with XIV's timesink is when it takes longer to get a reward than the time you'll actually use it, because gear is replaced too fast.

The problem I see with BLU is how people went from the get go to the "How to level to 50 in the fastest way possible". Why ? What's the rush ? Why do you go to such extent as leveling BLU by...not playing BLU but instead use an exploit with you high level job or being power leveled. Yesterday, I learned lvl5 Petrify by going into Haukke with one friend. I was lvl28, he was lvl30, and we struggled a little but it was more fun than going there as two lvl50 BLU wrecking everything or watching Netflix while we only wait for the spell to "drop".

Yeah, i'm just asking FFXIV to do what any good game, critically acclaimed, would do. To focus on gameplay instead of time sinking and obstuce mechanics.

Quite bold to say that when the "difficulty" of FFXIV only comes from "The first time this mechanic is introduced, it will kill you because you won't understand it".

Following a Zerg and doing FATEs is now social.

Talking is social. Something almost no one does in matchmaking apart from a random {Hello} and {Congrratulations}

For me social is when you have to discuss a strategy with your party in order to tackle a boss, or form a organization with mindlike goals

Yeah, it's called "leading the train" or "coordinating your with other parties to spawn different NMs"

Not following other 90 players that might aswell be NPCs for all you care.

You simply describe someone brooding in his corner during a brainstorming. That's not the brainstorming fault.

The whole genre was founded with that line of thought, and look where it is now as a genre...

Well, XIV is pretty shallow in its timesinks and it's at a point where some people sub only for one month, and then unsub until the next big patch, and don't miss any valuable item. Which is what I might do comes Shadowbringers...

I think the game needs both.

Yes, both. Because challenge is not the only good incentive. I never said is wasn't not a good one.

[Elerus]

Why ? What's the rush ? Why do you go to such extent as leveling BLU by...not playing BLU.

I can only speak for myself, but here's my personal take:

I enjoy strategy games. The vast majority of my gaming library are strategy games. Turn-based (Warhammer Total War, Endless Space II, Dominions, etc.), Grand Strategy (Crusader Kings II, Victoria II), and even some real time (mostly Dawn of War I and II). It's ingrained in me to find optimizations and push systems. I often don't ask if something can be done - that's relatively easy to figure out - I ask how efficiently and powerfully I can execute on a design. It's fun to me, accelerating strategies, plotting builds, and obtaining an edge. It's how I play FF. Before Blue Mage was even released I had looked up guides for spell locations, I had gear prepared (and consumables), etc. While I was and am deeply disappointed in the limited job restriction I was determined to make the most out of it and dive into the content. It's the primary reason I advocate for the expansion and lifting of Blue Mage so that I can enjoy it like I enjoy the other content in this game. I'm not saying my way of playing is superior and I certainly imagine some people would find it boring, but it is how I personally have fun in and out of FFXIV when it comes to video games.

I also imagine I'm not the only person who approaches content in such a fashion so . . . that probably accounts for at least a few answers to the why in your statement. Others will, of course, have to speak for themselves.

[Reynhart]

It's fun to me, accelerating strategies, plotting builds, and obtaining an edge.

I can understand that. But if you take your PLD70 to OS mobs and exploit the job changing system, you're not really "optimizing BLU", you're simply not playing it.

It would be basically the same as searching how to obtain an HQ 100% on a really difficult item...by simply buying it on the market board.

I wouldnt be surprised if they decided to create only limited jobs after they notice "you have (soon) 17 jobs to pick, we are done with them, here take a limited job instead".

Considering balance is more and more difficult the more job you add, I wouldn't be surprised by that. And I wouldn't personally mind as long as each limited job bring a new mechanic to the game.

[Shurrikhan]

Considering balance is more and more difficult the more job you add, I wouldn't be surprised by that.

Balance differs based on value of synergies, not job count. When a new job is added but neither grants or exploits a given advantage by a noticeably increased margin, it doesn't change balance. And difficulty does not excuse a complete refusal to try.

[Reynhart]

When a new job is added but neither grants or exploits a given advantage by a noticeably increased margin, it doesn't change balance.

Sure, but it's not like there are 10 different ways of tanking, healing, casting, range-ing or melee-ing. If the new jobs are simply copy-paste of old ones, they don't bring much to the game.

And difficulty does not excuse a complete refusal to try.

You can't really say they "refuse to try" when we already have 15 (Soon 17) jobs and when any setup is at least viable.

[Shurrikhan]

You can't really say they "refuse to try" when we already have 15 (Soon 17) jobs and when any setup is at least viable.

I wrote that in reply to the question of simply whether there would be any more than those 17, be it as few as 18 or as many as 25, etc -- i.e. literally giving up on full-fledged jobs after ShB.

Sure, but it's not like there are 10 different ways of tanking, healing, casting, range-ing or melee-ing. If the new jobs are simply copy-paste of old ones, they don't bring much to the game.

Aye, that is true. And I suspect it will continue painfully limit design so long as we continue only to think of content and each role in as incredibly narrow and fixed a manner as we have thus far.