Blue Mage is a masterpiece of game design.

[Aylis]

I was largely neutral on it till I could play it for myself and see, but at the same time I was more curious then I normally am about it. There's...a lot of bad history between me and FFXIV and SE in general when it comes to let downs and disappointments but. Yeah I'm big enough to admit and freely say when they did a good and yes they did a /very/ good with BLU. It's very chaotic and I'm enjoying it vastly. My friends and I capped off the night last night by going in Tam-Tara at around level 18 and just 1000 Needle'ing everything to death. It was so much fun and so silly that it was just awesome!

I'll say again, good job SE! This really did turn FFXIV around for me and made it fun.

[Fyce]

"That absolutely isn't the case here, and the gulf between the "fun" way and the "effective" way is so large it points to a massive shortcoming in the design," and "that's a good 6 hours of grind on 4 year old [8-man synced] content [to get a single ability]" are two very different issues. Nonetheless, in either case:

There is a vast difference between a perfect solution and being reasonably allowed to build an ability set around or with the inclusion of fun abilities (or, simply most abilities being fun), providing a whole and functioning kit, rather than solely the most muted and straightforward ones, where only a tiny minority of the overall kit is truly usable.

There is a vast difference between creating content that allows players to enjoyably revisit old content and 6 hours of grinding among an efficient team (which can be gathered almost solely in this context) to get a single skill.

One point isn't related to the issue we were discussing, the other is anecdotal evidence tied to subjective appreciation.
Also "6 hours" is also not a factual statistical statement, it's the result of some bad luck regarding RNG. Some might take 2 minutes to get that skill. Some might take even more time.

No, it's bad design - at best. At worst, it's a massive disrespect of the player's time.

[...]

I'm sorry but your post is mostly nonsense. MMORPGs are known for having "unfair" RNG systems that will eat your time. That's their very purpose. You are basically arguing against big time sinks in games known and designed to have big time sinks. As well as RNG and loot tables.
You speak about context, but you don't take into account the basic systems MMORPGs are built on.

You say that 50 hours is "absolutely unreasonable". May I remind you about the Atma grind? Probably the most infamous one, it was pure RNG and mindless grind of FATEs for what was designed to take ~80 hours on average. These things are specifically designed to eat your time. They are part of the deal when you play a MMORPG. Some things will take you dozen, even hundred of hours of play, and yes, it is ridiculous. But not because of "bad design", that's part of the MMORPG package. And guess what? Most of them are optional and are time sink for players who... want time sinks.
You don't need these skills. You wanted them. You made the choice to dive into that part of the content.

Some achievements in this game require way, way more than these pityful 50 hours (that, again, are anecdotal evidence and extrapolation based on your own luck). Will you complain about these as well? Will you complain about every time sink in the game? There are far worse ones than playing on Blue Mage a few hours for skills that you don't even need.

And regarding your argument about "there are too few spells available to the strictly solo player", did you know that you can actually complete the Carnivale while playing 100% solo? Yeah, you can.
Also, 32 out of the 49 skills can be obtained solo as far as I know. Not "15 or 16", that's a flat out lie. There might be even more as we discover more alternative sources for skills.
Here's the list of all the skill numbers that can be obtained solo to my knowledge:

1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 36, 39, 41, 42, 43.
I have a doubt regarding number 6, so I didn't list it because I learned it before I could check the alternative solo source.

Finally, everyone like this "solo job" argument, when the reality of it was one single powerpoint slide during the FanFest that said "designed for solo" and, "not suited for parties". Both statements are true, even if you don't see why, and they don't exclude party play. The slides that followed this one even had lines about playing in party, and promotional screenshots of BLU playing in group were released.

The rest of your post is simply your subjective views. Which I can simply say that I don't share without having to argue further.

[InkstainedGwyn]

I'm amused at how many folks are simultaneously complaining about the job lasting for only a day (after going non-stop) but then also that some skills might (gasp) take more than fifteen runs to get. (How does mount farming make you feel?)

[Nedkel]

Its eureka experience with different unique class, nothing special, but in this case its more single player than eureka.
Its like playing vanilia wow, boooring.

[Reveria]

Nice strawman with the Atma Grind, but yeah I remember it, and it was just as bad and stupid and unfun. At least for BLU we can bypass the BS. Doesn't change the fact that the whole original point of this side topic is that optimal and fun can are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not arguing against time sinks, I'm arguing against BAD time sinks. The incredibly grindy achievements are just as terrible and unfun as grinding Atma ever was, and I'll call out the bad ones as I see them because they're bad.

As for the solo friendly spells, I was a bit hyperbolic, but I did leave out a couple on purpose. The totem spells are just kinda freebies so yes they're technically solo friendly, but not all of them, and some have had alternative sources located since the time of my posting. I wouldn't consider 42 soloable, because that's most of the Carnivale needing to be beaten, and some of the fights very much need spells that are NOT easily soloable in order to succeed, at least so far as I have attempted. I'm also not aware of the solo options for a few of the spells you've listed, so apologies as information is still coming out, and all I had handy was an older list. I'd still argue the stronger and more fun spells are locked behind group content which is again at odds with the idea of a solo focused experience. It's worth noting though that not everyone likes to spoil things for themselves though, so if you're following the hints in the spell book, the number is much closer to that 15 I said, plus the few from Whalaquee Totems, so those players may be in a bad spot.

Finally, no need to be passive aggressive and condescending. Yes, the Carnivale is a solo experience. But there's still plenty of spell learning that's extremely preferred for you to party up which is great for those who want to but still undermines their vision for a solo oriented job, and I still argue that having important spells be tied to literally unsoloable content undermines the Carnivale to some extent as well.

Anyway we're absolutely not going to agree on this, so I'm just going to reiterate my point one final time that optimal can also be the most fun, because that's all I originally intended to say.

[NorthernLadMSP]

At the very end of the day, BLU's only purpose is the fun it gives the person who spams their skills in Limsa (or Gridania or Ul'dah). But, calling it a masterpiece? LOL no.

[Fyce]

Nice strawman with the Atma Grind, but yeah I remember it, and it was just as bad and stupid and unfun. At least for BLU we can bypass the BS. Doesn't change the fact that the whole original point of this side topic is that optimal and fun can are not mutually exclusive.

How is that a strawman? I made a point that MMORPGs are designed with lots of time sinks in mind and then gave you an actual example of one that is far worse than what you are complaining about to show you that what you describe as "bad design" is actually pretty common. I also gave the example of a achievements. All of that to say that if you complain about BLU's grind, then you have to complain about A LOT of things.
Are you calling it a strawman simply because you can't answer it? That wouldn't surprise me given what I'm about to say at the end of this post...

I'm not arguing against time sinks, I'm arguing against BAD time sinks. The incredibly grindy achievements are just as terrible and unfun as grinding Atma ever was, and I'll call out the bad ones as I see them because they're bad.

Here's the difference though: you are not arguing about objectively bad time sink, you are arguing about time sinks that you consider bad, in a game, even a whole genre, that is full of these.
And the reason why there are so much of them instead of things that are "fun and effective" is pretty obvious, as I already said.

As for the solo friendly spells, I was a bit hyperbolic, but I did leave out a couple on purpose.

A COUPLE?! That's the second time you give a precise number to back up your claim, which turn out to be at least TWICE as far from the truth. The first was the maximum number of kills you'd consider to be fun, and now a highly deceptive number about the actual amount of skills you can learn solo.
That's not hyperbolic. That's you being completly off and trying to find a poor excuse.

Finally, no need to be passive aggressive and condescending.

I wouldn't be if you didn't use false numbers and tried to label something as "bad design" when it was only your subjective opinion.
Do I have to point out to something else that I should've told you earlier that made me answer you the way I did? Here we go:

It seems you may be focusing on your preconceived notion that I am just a whiny, impatient MMO player rather than what I'm really trying to say.

When only 15 or 16 of the 49 spells available to you are easily soloable [...]

You claim not to be a " whiny, impatient MMO player", while at the same time complain about the "low number of easily skills to get solo".
"I'm not impatient but I want more easy stuff". Is what I get from you.
Are you going to say that it was hyperbolic as well? Or that you didn't really mean "easily" even if that's what you wrote?... To be honest I couldn't care less at this point.

Sorry but I'm done. I don't have any more time to give to someone who cannot bear 10 hours of farm in an MMORPG - sorry, 20 hours, and who cannot easily learn more than 15 or 16 skills solo - sorry, at least 32, and who isn't someone impatient or whiny - sorry, who wants more easy stuff.

[Zephera]

Sorry but I'm done. I don't have any more time to give to someone who cannot bear 10 hours of farm in an MMORPG - sorry, 20 hours, and who cannot easily learn more than 15 or 16 skills solo - sorry, at least 32, and who isn't someone impatient or whiny - sorry, who wants more easy stuff.

RNG isn't difficult content, it's an inconsistent timegate. Pretending it adds any difficulty to content is inaccurate.

[Fyce]

RNG isn't difficult content, it's an inconsistent timegate. Pretending it adds any difficulty to content is inaccurate.

You know very well what I mean when I speak about difficulty. You are being pedantic about sementics just to make a poor point.

But okay, I'll play your game: it's objectively difficult to demonstrate the amount of patience and determination required in order to complete a long grind, regardless of how easy the repetitive task that needs to be done is. It may also be difficult for someone busy to find the required amount of time to do it, regardless of their own tolerance for grindy tasks.

Happy?

[Zephera]

You know very well what I mean when I speak about difficulty. You are being pedantic about sementics just to make a poor point.

But okay, I'll play your game: it's objectively difficult to demonstrate the amount of patience and determination required in order to complete a long grind, regardless of how easy the repetitive task that needs to be done is. It may also be difficult for someone busy to find the required amount of time to do it, regardless of their own tolerance for grindy tasks.

Happy?

You don't need to take it so personally, you just seem to be getting angry that other people have a different opinion about the content than you do. Relax a bit.