Elitist behaviour in dungeons: [venting]

[St0rmchild]

It is bad because the newbee tank has to learn and if someone always runs and pulls he doesn't learn anything besides that people are impacient. Doesn't hurt anyone to take it slower with a new player to make sure he/she learns instead of having another uncapable tank that doesn't know shit with level 70.

If I'm the healer in a group like that I'll encourage the tank "don't worry, you cannot overpull me -- I can keep the group alive; keep going!" but ultimately the weakest of either tank or healer determine what you can or cannot pull.

[Ilan]

And what exactly does the tank learn by pulling 1 group at a time? Someone adding monsters in the pull, if the tank does not do so, may at least show the tank that the group is well able to handle significantly larger groups and will hopefully encourage the tank to pull more.

If you are the healer encourage the tank to pull more and not run and pull like a monkey. If you run and pull he doesn't lean anything except that playing tank isn't fun because your party gives a shit about you. The tank only learns with experience of tanking and not with people pulling mobs and probably flame the tank for not taking them off of them.

If I'm the healer in a group like that I'll encourage the tank "don't worry, you cannot overpull me -- I can keep the group alive; keep going!" but ultimately the weakest of either tank or healer determine what you can or cannot pull.

Thats how its supposed to be.

[Taika]

If you are the healer encourage the tank to pull more and not run and pull like a monkey. If you run and pull he doesn't lean anything except that playing tank isn't fun because your party gives a shit about you.

Oh yes I agree that it's a good idea to communicate, encourage and give advice. But, at the same time, if the tank has stopped with a small pull, and there are enemies nearby that the healer can easily add to the group without causing any threat to anyone, I don't see any harm in it. On the contrary, I would view it as good team work (yes, even if I would be the one tanking).

Then it's another matter, in my opinion, if the healer (or anyone else) is sprinting ahead of the tank and making the pulls in the first place.

The incoming damage is more manageable with 1 group than with the entire dungeon for the tank AND the healer. That tank must learn how to mitigate damage (and the proper use of his cooldowns) and how to GTFO of the red circles without moving the mob before pulling everything. And that is easier to learn with fewer monsters hitting you.

Apart from some leveling dungeon pulls, the incoming damage from 1 group of monsters is negligible and doesn't require any management from the tank nor the healer in dungeons (and, additionally, resource-wise - meaning cooldowns, MP, and TP - it is generally also more effective to pull larger groups of enemies than small ones). I would also argue that dodging AoEs while pulling and tanking is something you should learn way before you encounter a situation in which your group wishes you to pull more than one group at a time. Or at least I was thinking of level 50 and up dungeons writing my reply, not Sastasha.

[miraidensetsu]

Apart from some leveling dungeon pulls, the incoming damage from 1 group of monsters is negligible and doesn't require any management from the tank nor the healer in dungeons (and, additionally, resource-wise - meaning cooldowns, MP, and TP - it is generally also more effective to pull larger groups of enemies than small ones). I would also argue that dodging AoEs while pulling and tanking is something you should learn way before you encounter a situation in which your group wishes you to pull more than one group at a time. Or at least I was thinking of level 50 and up dungeons writing my reply, not Sastasha.

And I'm speaking about every content, from Sastasha to The Burn (even considering that at 70 he should know how to tank). Specially under level 50, where there are most tanks learning how to tank. And I'm considering that he IS learning how to dodge AoEs while pulling, how to position the mobs for melee DPS, the Cooldown rotation (albeit it isn't that intuitive). And 1 group at time lets him learn those things without worring so much with resources and gain confidence to pull more.

It isn't effective to bite more than you can chew. A wipe is never an good outcome and if the tank doesn't knows the ropes or isn't confident, it's more effective for him to do single pulls. It can appear less effective, but risk a wipe is worse. In this case, the healer's teamwork is to DPS (to make sure that the mobs are dead earlier) while the tank doesn't need heals, not pull for him. If I'm tanking and the healer/DPS does that, I would shirk him and just DPS all the way. If he wants to tank, I won't be on his way.

[Ilan]

Oh yes I agree that it's a good idea to communicate, encourage and give advice. But, at the same time, if the tank has stopped with a small pull, and there are enemies nearby that the healer can easily add to the group without causing any threat to anyone, I don't see any harm in it. On the contrary, I would view it as good team work (yes, even if I would be the one tanking).

Then it's another matter, in my opinion, if the healer (or anyone else) is sprinting ahead of the tank and making the pulls in the first place.



Apart from some leveling dungeon pulls, the incoming damage from 1 group of monsters is negligible and doesn't require any management from the tank nor the healer in dungeons (and, additionally, resource-wise - meaning cooldowns, MP, and TP - it is generally also more effective to pull larger groups of enemies than small ones). I would also argue that dodging AoEs while pulling and tanking is something you should learn way before you encounter a situation in which your group wishes you to pull more than one group at a time. Or at least I was thinking of level 50 and up dungeons writing my reply, not Sastasha.

The point is that it won't stop by just pulling a few mobs extra, people tend to get hostile torwards the new tanks most of the time if they are impacient and pull mobs extra. I mean sure communication is the key here but we all know that there are enough new and old players that straight up refuse to communicate.

But lets pretend for a moment that we have a new player in a dungeon, who plays his first mmo and doesn't have any experience and is pretty nervous. He ends up in a party with the average DF dps and healer and one of them decides to pull extra and our new player starts to panic because he is not used to pull that much and doesn't feel comfortable with the whole situation, the person that pulled extra dies and starts blaming and flaming the tank for his/her mistake. It doesn't hurt to take it a bit slower if the tank is not comfortable with pulling big even if its sometimes a bit annoying.

[Taika]

In this case, the healer's teamwork is to DPS (to make sure that the mobs are dead earlier) while the tank doesn't need heals, not pull for him. If I'm tanking and the healer/DPS does that, I would shirk him and just DPS all the way. If he wants to tank, I won't be on his way.

Oh whoa, talk about "elitist" and "toxic" behaviour. I have occasionally pulled some extra monsters to the group as a healer. In these cases, I have pulled them directly to the tank, Holy stunned them right away, reduced my own enmity and helped burn them down while keeping myself and everyone else alive. Usually it has made the tank pull more the next round. No one has asked me to stop, but if that had happened, I of course would have. And luckily no one has followed your example in being spiteful about it either.

The point is that it won't stop by just pulling a few mobs extra, people tend to get hostile torwards the new tanks most of the time if they are impacient and pull mobs extra. I mean sure communication is the key here but we all know that there are enough new and old players that straight up refuse to communicate.

But lets pretend for a moment that we have a new player in a dungeon, who plays his first mmo and doesn't have any experience and is pretty nervous. He ends up in a party with the average DF dps and healer and one of them decides to pull extra and our new player starts to panic because he is not used to pull that much and doesn't feel comfortable with the whole situation, the person that pulled extra dies and starts blaming and flaming the tank for his/her mistake. It doesn't hurt to take it a bit slower if the tank is not comfortable with pulling big even if its sometimes a bit annoying.

No one here is condoning blaming and flaming though. Everyone is a member of the same team and communication goes both ways.

[Ilan]

Oh whoa, talk about "elitist" and "toxic" behaviour. I have occasionally pulled some extra monsters to the group as a healer. In these cases, I have pulled them directly to the tank, Holy stunned them right away, reduced my own enmity and helped burn them down while keeping myself and everyone else alive. Usually it has made the tank pull more the next round. No one has asked me to stop, but if that had happened, I of course would have. And luckily no one has followed your example in being spiteful about it either.


No one here is condoning blaming and flaming though. Everyone is a member of the same team and communication goes both ways.

Flaming happens most of the time with the people who pull more, weirdly enough. Everyone is a member of the team, thats true but people don't act like that most of the time.

[miraidensetsu]

Oh whoa, talk about "elitist" and "toxic" behaviour. I have occasionally pulled some extra monsters to the group as a healer. In these cases, I have pulled them directly to the tank, Holy stunned them right away, reduced my own enmity and helped burn them down while keeping myself and everyone else alive. Usually it has made the tank pull more the next round. No one has asked me to stop, but if that had happened, I of course would have. And luckily no one has followed your example in being spiteful about it either.

I've never done that. But I've saw over this forum and Reddit several cases of tank mains shirking someone who likes to pull for the tank. And if you die, it's on you.

No one here is condoning blaming and flaming though. Everyone is a member of the same team and communication goes both ways.

Everyone is a member of the same team. But, if you fail to consider the group's dynamics or to communicate with the tank, the falt is all yours.

[ServerCollaps]

Everyone is a member of the same team. But, if you fail to consider the group's dynamics or to communicate with the tank, the falt is all yours.

except the tank only talks french/german and wont listen to any other language, welcome to european datacenters