The Blue Mage Argument at a glance

[Seraphor]

Middle ground would have been to have a way to still have this OP solo job as a DF setting or toggle and a combat job that could be used in the full game. It's not an either or scenario. It would definitely take a large amount of resources so why is it fine for one group of players to ask for something and not another group? Most taking part in this debate could have got the type of content that they are MOST interested in without it being at the cost of what the others want.

Sure, you can have your cake and eat it, but that requires two cakes.

[jon041065]

Sure, you can have your cake and eat it, but that requires two cakes.

Would be less work to be done on the animations since those could be shared and more work on the concept and balancing side. Probably not much more than adding any other combat job unless they did add a multi role or talent system. I still don't see a problem with that. That would be way to start pushing past the trinity system so that would be a good thing.

A lot of us were asking for a blu that we could main and we will still be asking for it.

[Astarotha]

theres nothing in the overworld that needs blue mage to be more powerful than the weakest job currently in the game since the world is currently balanced for solo players (hell there are times when ive killed overworld mobs 9 levels above me for hunts), and blue mages have access to pf for grouped content, so if blue mage is so op that they break the party system and the triad supposedly... why allow them into parties in the first place?

[Shurrikhan]

Middle ground would have been to have a way to still have this OP solo job as a DF setting or toggle and a combat job that could be used in the full game. It's not an either or scenario. It would definitely take a large amount of resources so why is it fine for one group of players to ask for something and not another group? Most taking part in this debate could have got the type of content that they are MOST interested in without it being at the cost of what the others want.

In what way would having an imbalanced kit -- where imbalance in nearly all cases reduces the number of viable choices one has available to them -- be more entertaining than simply having a balanced kit with some four times the normal amount of choices by which to make that kit?

It's kind of like asking for the unpolished product because of certain favorite quirks formed from the expense to other components of the design, rather than just the polished design. Given the polished design, all the unique gameplay can be provided by as little as reducing enemy status effect resistance. There's no unique advantage to the unpolished version. But there's a ton of stuff from which they'd be excluded by the unpolished version.

Sure, you can have your cake and eat it, but that requires two cakes.

Except in this case it's not two distinct products. You get half a cake to eat, or you get the whole cake. In the first case, only half the cake was ever made anyways; in the latter case, the whole. Development time is not split between producing a solo-content oriented BLU and broadly viable BLU. It just requires more (broadly beneficial, to all jobs, not just BLU) features and mechanics that allow for the solo job its broad viability and balance and to allow for a larger plethora of choices for each fight, rather than merely taking Death and being done with it because "it's traditional (to one-shot fights?)". At present we're aimed towards Magica Wheel type play, only a fourth at most of the abilities being viable at a time according to the fight being approached, rather than each skill having actual synergies and relative value. That's the difference. Reducing BLU to solo play only does not uniquely retain any characteristic qualities of BLU; it merely allows you to half-ass the design.

[jon041065]

In what way would having an imbalanced kit -- where imbalance in nearly all cases reduces the number of viable choices one has available to them -- be more entertaining than simply having a balanced kit with some four times the normal amount of choices by which to make that kit?

It's kind of like asking for the unpolished product because of certain favorite quirks formed from the expense to other components of the design, rather than just the polished design. Given the polished design, all the unique gameplay can be provided by as little as reducing enemy status effect resistance. There's no unique advantage to the unpolished version. But there's a ton of stuff from which they'd be excluded by the unpolished version.

I'm not advocating for THIS OP solo job but I also don't have a problem with it as long as there is a way for blu to be used in the full game. I've been saying for awhile now that I'm in favor of most players getting what they want but not at the cost of what others want. You and I are on the same "side" in the limited job debate. I remember you having a much more intense and fleshed out concept for how I thought blu was going to be. My impression from this debate has been that a loooot of players want to get rid of the trinity system or at least push what is allowed within it. Then just some feel limited jobs is a good way to get there, some think it could get us there, and then some of us think it's the wrong way or won't get us there at all.

I'm not against A OP solo job but don't feel this is the way it should be done. I'm all for the onion knight/freelancer/mimic concept (that could use the framework that has already been built for limited blu) that could have a lot larger scope of gameplay. That people could build their solo job through that and then complete a challenge. That would then allow you to take the solo job that the player has built outside of that system and into what would be allowed under the "limited job" rules. I'm against the proposed version of limited jobs but not entirely against the idea. “The man who chases two rabbits catches none.” I want SE to make sure that they have a good hold on the rabbit they already caught (those of us that were mostly fine with the game as is) before going after the other rabbit (those that didn't like the game as is or have been complaining a lot about it). That turning a very requested job into side content is risking loosing the rabbit they already caught. It's similar to the mistake other companies in the industry are making. Assuming their established customers will still be there while they try to attract a new type of customer. Those companies that have done it right gave the established base something while showing off the new thing that could appeal to other audiences. IF limited jobs were something that was just more content that you could choose to do and not take away jobs from the full game I would be fine with it. If SE then turned the limited job concept into something that was larger than "learn enemy spells and a Carnival" and was something they could build up instead of multiple separate boxes then I would be a huge advocate for that.

[GrenGarm]

You're seriously comparing ingame footage to prerendered cgi?

What's the difference? It's a trailer. Just because they don't show anyone else in the frame doesn't mean you're intended to solo raid bosses. That's a huge assumption with no basis in fact.

[Shurrikhan]

The trailers shows you soloing Shiva.

The Shadowbringers trailer shows switching jobs in the middle of combat. Doesn't mean it's going to happen that way.

You're seriously comparing ingame footage to prerendered cgi?

I have to agree with Seraphor here. The implication was pretty strong not just from the clip, but when and how it was presented (e.g. among what text to the same implication).

[Darkpaw]

I have to agree with Seraphor here. The implication was pretty strong not just from the clip, but when and how it was presented (e.g. among what text to the same implication).

I got to agree, this is definitely being geared to the solo end of the spectrum which to be fair does seem to be a major theme throughout the systems they are implementing in the expansion from the details we have gotten. While I have been a strong voice in asking for reason. The calls for passionate people to continue to speak out are not unfounded. I think there is a lot more at play here than any of us can fully understand however I must agree with one sentiment. This does not have to be a all or nothing approach.

However with that said. We are getting it one set way. We know this, it's an indisputable fact. We are getting the implementation we are getting. Now before I get killed here let me say this as well. We need to accept the fact that this limited job system is not going anywhere however this does not mean that we should become complacent in asking for better or more.

I also have to agree that using in game footage as part of a comparison with a pre-rendered cinematic is... foolhardy at best, but the in game footage should also be taken with a grain of salt. How many times have we seen in game footage that is just Yoshi P's lala getting smacked around? The solo BLU in the Shiva fight was nothing more than footage showing that some primal abilities would be learnable and I don't read anything more into it than that.

But hey few more weeks and we'll at least be able to play it and we can start seeing some real interesting posts backed by experience and I'm excited for that.

[jon041065]

snip

I agree with your most of your post but want to bring up a couple of things.

I would add the Shiva footage was also to show that BLU would be able to stun them. We don't know how often or how reliable that move will be. Just that it will be possible.

The game will be getting this limited job just as they have announced and there is no changing that. But this only has to apply to Shadowbringers. The 6.0 expac could change limited jobs to be something different like what I've said I would be completely in favor of instead of adding BST and/or PUP as they are with BLU at this time. It will all depend on the feedback they got now and in the coming months.

It is passion that is pushing a lot of us to speak out on how BLU is coming to the game at this time. Be that from people that wanted to main blu, those that worry their favorite job could be added in a limited state one day, and people that are just flat out against solo content. I'm in that first group and can empathize with the second. The third group I don't agree with. I also think that some of us also have played WoW for years and are concerned that XIV can be starting down a similar path. Putting out more and more various types of content that are not just little pieces of content or mini games but something that will take a decent amount of resources to be invested for a long term. WoW started to do this I'd say back in 2012 and some would argue before that. That resources and dev time started to be spread more and more thing until you started to see a lot of content become more shallow. Then those devs felt they had to either put rewards so good that it basically "forced" players into content they didn't want to take part in or intentionally make it almost impossible to reach your end goal that you kept running the correct type of content over and over and over. I don't think XIV would do exactly that but probably just have so many shallow pieces of content that don't do much to convince people they are worth subbing each month. This is why I would like to see THIS version of limited jobs scrapped and a singular limited job system take its place or some other form of solo content that is open to all jobs.

[Darkpaw]

Alright, I'll freely admit after the new live letter I'm a bit confused as to why it was so important to do this limited system outside of the whole Mighty Guard tank stance thing. I mean it's definitely got most of the base line to build multiple rotations and even the potential to fill multiple roles, but yea... definitely more confused now than what I was as to the importance of this limited job system... That live letter left me with more questions than answers.