Is it wrong to run Castrum Abania as a tank at ilvl 272

[Turnipsi]

Seeing as the nay sayers keep repeating the same things no one has claimed and want to die on that hill, it's kinda pointless to keep going. My take away from this thread is to start assuming undergeared people have different playstyle to mime and as such just kick them out or leave. Otherwise they take it as anecdotal evidence that it's fine instead of managing to clear despite their inconsiderate gearing.

We tell people in ARR to keep their gear minimum 10 levels and weapon 5 already, how is it not a thing in SB, where gap between one level are basically 5-10 ARR ones...

[ChaseNetwork]

Then I dare you to prove that anything at least in these two lines:
To take this into further perspective, Castrum Abania is a Leveling Dungeon. The actual 70 dungeons start the next dungeon after that,
With Ala Mhigo, Kugane Castle, and The Temple of the Fist requiring minimum 280.
is wrong, if "everything" is wrong.

I wont argue that 270 gear is the greatest thing to be doing, of course.
270 gear is 53% the potency of the 290 gear limit in Castrum Abania.

I will admit "opinion" for it being normal to be 270~ when progressing through the 4.0 MSQ. That's the highest gear you can get in 3.0, and you go through the gear offerings during progression so fast that you can't really spiritbond it, and once used, you can't MB it. Most people also aren't set up to Desynth much of anything at those levels for a long time, which makes them worth chump change at NPC market. That leaves the Materia offering VERY enticing. I was 270 when I cleared Castrum Abania, by the way. Completely Augmented Shire geared. Didn't have any hiccups during the run. However, an opinion can not be wrong. You may choose to not like my opinion, but tough.

Now, I suppose it may be not necessarily be correct that 270 would be minimum to enter Castrum Abania.
Honestly, Square Enix's ranges of gear access aren't the most consistent.
The Drowned City of Skalla has a minimum entry of 300, and syncs down to 370. 300 gear is strangely enough 83% as potent as 370 gear. With this one, lowest gear might be the Lv.68 crafted set, which as stated, is the highest gear you could get by this point. I'm not sure what all pieces the MSQ would have given you by then. (basically no accessories if you didn't do any sidequests, as I know MOST OF YOU don't do).
Kugane Castle and The Temple of the Fist have a range of 280 to 340, 280 being about 65% the potency of 340 gear. With this one, lowest gear would be 276 (Lv.65).

But well, I did fine with 270 gear in there, so screw it, eh?

[KaivaC]

I will admit "opinion" for it being normal to be 270~ when progressing through the 4.0 MSQ. That's the highest gear you can get in 3.0, and you go through the gear offerings during progression so fast that you can't really spiritbond it, and once used, you can't MB it. Most people also aren't set up to Desynth much of anything at those levels for a long time, which makes them worth chump change at NPC market. That leaves the Materia offering VERY enticing. I was 270 when I cleared Castrum Abania, by the way. Completely Augmented Shire geared. Didn't have any hiccups during the run. However, an opinion can not be wrong. You may choose to not like my opinion, but tough.

Gonna have to have to challenge you on this point. 270 is not, at this point, nor ever, normal. Even with the initial 4.0 launch and players rushed through MSQ, you're gonna pick up enough gear to be much higher than 272 - both because of MSQ rewards and the fact that every dungeon in 4.0 gives you at least one piece of gear at the end. My question is how were you 270 in 4.0 when you went through? Did you toss all that free gear that the game gave to you? Did you entirely drop all of the Shisui/Bardam/Doma gear? The HQ gear that the MSQ gives you leading up to Abania? It's almost as if you have to go out of your way to stay at 270 when you reach that point in the MSQ.

[HyoMinPark]

Then I dare you to prove that anything at least in these two lines:
To take this into further perspective, Castrum Abania is a Leveling Dungeon. The actual 70 dungeons start the next dungeon after that,
With Ala Mhigo, Kugane Castle, and The Temple of the Fist requiring minimum 280.
is wrong, if "everything" is wrong.

The difference is that leveling offers far greater stat boosts going from 61 to 70/i270 to i290 than going from i290 to i380 at cap. I listed the numbers in a previous post, but to summarize: you gain roughly ~600 DEF/M.DEF as a tank from upgraded Augmented Shire to the level 67 body and legs that drop from Doma Castle (just these two pieces—I didn’t even account for head, gloves, belt, and boots, which would give you even more), where as you gain less than ~300 DEF/M.DEF upgrading from the Antiquated i290 to Unaugmented Scaevan body and legs.

Leveling dungeons sync you far harsher than “expert” dungeons, and also hit you much harder. Expert dungeons are a joke that I can heal completely with a fairy/regen and oGCDs, and nothing else; I can’t get away with that in leveling dungeons.

Not to mention, there are toolkit limitations that you have while leveling that are not present when you are doing content at level cap. While this isn’t applicable to Castrum Abania, it is applicable to the dungeons before it. Some jobs are affected more so than others: BRD, not so much; but DRK loses access to TBN, which is a pretty useful CD for them, to provide one example.

I will admit "opinion" for it being normal to be 270~ when progressing through the 4.0 MSQ. That's the highest gear you can get in 3.0, and you go through the gear offerings during progression so fast that you can't really spiritbond it, and once used, you can't MB it. Most people also aren't set up to Desynth much of anything at those levels for a long time, which makes them worth chump change at NPC market. That leaves the Materia offering VERY enticing.

All I see here are excuses to not upgrade your gear. Even if you don’t take the HQ white gear that the MSQ gives you, dungeons give you one free drop after every completion for your respective role. You can’t market board dungeon gear, only convert or turn them in for GC seals, and, really, it’s better to hold on to it if you plan to level up other jobs within a role so that you don’t have to want for gear upgrades along the way.

I was 270 when I cleared Castrum Abania, by the way. Completely Augmented Shire geared. Didn't have any hiccups during the run. However, an opinion can not be wrong. You may choose to not like my opinion, but tough.

Anecdotal evidence doesn’t constitute as solid evidence. Especially since my anecdotes directly contradict yours: I’ve healed i270 tanks in Castrum Abania, and they get trucked. Were it not for my babysitting, they would have died every other pull. “No hiccups” doesn’t mean that everything was smooth—are you certain your healer wasn’t cursing up a storm having to baby an i270 tank? Or was your first clear on a DPS, where it’s less of a detriment to roll i270 compared to a tank to roll i270?

But, again. These are all anecdotes. They don’t constitute as anything more than that. You may choose not to like this, “but tough”, I guess.

Honestly, Square Enix's ranges of gear access aren't the most consistent.

Which is why people keep asking for minimum item levels on leveling dungeons. This would cease to be an issue if they would do that.

In order to queue into Baelsar’s Wall (level 60), I have to meet a minimum of i230 (which is still spicy when you consider that first pull in there). But I can take off all my gear and queue into the next dungeon, Sirensong Sea (level 61), at i62 (weapon only). Can you see the problem here?

With this one, lowest gear might be the Lv.68 crafted set, which as stated, is the highest gear you could get by this point. I'm not sure what all pieces the MSQ would have given you by then. (basically no accessories if you didn't do any sidequests, as I know MOST OF YOU don't do).

No one is demanding people be full HQ level 68 gear. Having a mixture of pieces from Bardam’s Mettle and Doma Castle are fine, especially if those pieces are weapon, body, and legs. A hell of a lot better than full Augmented Shire, which starts being irrelevant at level 64, numerically speaking.

As for the accessories: man, if only the leveling dungeons gave you a guaranteed drop for your role after you clear them each time—oh, wait.

The accessories are less of a concern compared to left side when going from level 60 to 70: for tanks, the biggest concerns are weapon, body, and legs. Those give the greatest stat boosts, and having an up-to-level weapon is the most important thing when it comes to building and maintaining aggro, much like how it’s the most important thing for healers when it comes to healing output.

But well, I did fine with 270 gear in there, so screw it, eh?

Again. Anecdote.
They don’t trump numbers, no matter how much some people want them to.

[MeowingKittens]

People have ALREADY done the math out. The difference on def stars on tank gear are DRASTIC between 270 and 280. The 10 level item differences is extremely deceptive, so if you base your calculations on “these numbers are close” rather than the ACTUAL stats on the gear, you’re doing it wrong. (Side note, I’m at work, but can anyone gear screenshots of gear sets for ultimate demonstration?)

The game hands you gear in MSQ on a silver platter. There is ZERO reason to not use it. You don’t waste Gil buying it, so you lose no value having to NPC it upon replacement over selling it outright. Making Gil is so incredibly easy in the game (yes, even without crafting or gathering), you don’t need that extra scratch. The only reason NOT to wear what MSQ gives you is that you already have something equivalent or better.

270 gear is not, and has never been, equivalent to 280+.

[ChaseNetwork]

Gonna have to have to challenge you on this point. 270 is not, at this point, nor ever, normal. Even with the initial 4.0 launch and players rushed through MSQ, you're gonna pick up enough gear to be much higher than 272 - both because of MSQ rewards and the fact that every dungeon in 4.0 gives you at least one piece of gear at the end. My question is how were you 270 in 4.0 when you went through? Did you toss all that free gear that the game gave to you? Did you entirely drop all of the Shisui/Bardam/Doma gear? The HQ gear that the MSQ gives you leading up to Abania? It's almost as if you have to go out of your way to stay at 270 when you reach that point in the MSQ.

For my experience, every time the quests offered gear, I took the Materia option. Furthermore, I did every single side quest as they became available, and still kept taking the materia.
For dungeons, yes, I did get one single gear from the prog dungeons. Every single time. Seems they didn't want me getting Dragoon gear, as no chests offered a piece, and it was Earrings as my guaranteed drop for each one. I certainly was not gonna go out of my way to grind these leveling dungeons for gear. Never bothered equipping them. Found more interest and value out of getting Grand Company seals with them.
I did hit Lv.70 well before reaching Castrum Abania, but my Lv.70 job quest had a prerequisite MSQ that I apparently hadn't reached yet. Ended up getting that done after Castrum Abania when I went to see if I had finally done the quest. And then I still didn't end up using that gear, because by then my FC leader had gifted me an HQ Lv.380 gear set as reward for my first Lv.70.
As for the experience of my run itself, I was using Diversion and and Elusive Jump to keep 2nd on the Enmity List. Perhaps my tank was even worse geared? No clue. I certainly didn't care to inspect them to find out. Healer didn't complain about anything. We were done with the dungeon pretty quick. No one died. Never needed to wait on anyone's TP or MP. Got a chest piece at the end of the run, thought "cool, I'll trade you for Grand Company seals since I'm gonna get artifact gear in a few minutes anyways". That's basically been my mentality for gearing all throughout my leveling process in this game.
I didn't bother trying to gear from 1-50. I just simply used my Artifact gear to get tomestones for 130 gear. Thought "50-60 aint much to deal with. I'll just gear at 60." Sure enough. Got to Lv.60 on 130 gear. Used Artifact gear to get tomestones for 270 gear. Believe you me, I was primed to do the same bloody thing for Stormblood. And I ended up with 15mil gil in the process too. Way worth. My house is nice.

[KaivaC]

For my experience, every time the quests offered gear, I took the Materia option. Furthermore, I did every single side quest as they became available, and still kept taking the materia.
For dungeons, yes, I did get one single gear from the prog dungeons. Every single time. Seems they didn't want me getting Dragoon gear, as no chests offered a piece, and it was Earrings as my guaranteed drop for each one. I certainly was not gonna go out of my way to grind these leveling dungeons for gear. Never bothered equipping them. Found more interest and value out of getting Grand Company seals with them.
I did hit Lv.70 well before reaching Castrum Abania, but my Lv.70 job quest had a prerequisite MSQ that I apparently hadn't reached yet. Ended up getting that done after Castrum Abania when I went to see if I had finally done the quest. And then I still didn't end up using that gear, because by then my FC leader had gifted me an HQ Lv.380 gear set as reward for my first Lv.70.
As for the experience of my run itself, I was using Diversion and and Elusive Jump to keep 2nd on the Enmity List. Perhaps my tank was even worse geared? No clue. I certainly didn't care to inspect them to find out. Healer didn't complain about anything. We were done with the dungeon pretty quick. No one died. Never needed to wait on anyone's TP or MP. Got a chest piece at the end of the run, thought "cool, I'll trade you for Grand Company seals since I'm gonna get artifact gear in a few minutes anyways". That's basically been my mentality for gearing all throughout my leveling process in this game.
I didn't bother trying to gear from 1-50. I just simply used my Artifact gear to get tomestones for 130 gear. Thought "50-60 aint much to deal with. I'll just gear at 60." Sure enough. Got to Lv.60 on 130 gear. Used Artifact gear to get tomestones for 270 gear. Believe you me, I was primed to do the same bloody thing for Stormblood. And I ended up with 15mil gil in the process too. Way worth. My house is nice.

-_-

So basically, your anecdote was about DRG gear when the primary discussion centered on undergeared tanks.
...
You can obviously get away with being underleveled more because you aren't a tank. It's not ideal, but again, you are not the one who has to take all the damage from the mobs. If you had this experience as a tank, I'd have more to say.

[ChaseNetwork]

-_-

So basically, your anecdote was about DRG gear when the primary discussion centered on undergeared tanks.
...
You can obviously get away with being underleveled more because you aren't a tank. It's not ideal, but again, you are not the one who has to take all the damage from the mobs. If you had this experience as a tank, I'd have more to say.

Hmm... Challenge accepted.

[HyoMinPark]

For dungeons, yes, I did get one single gear from the prog dungeons. Every single time. Seems they didn't want me getting Dragoon gear, as no chests offered a piece, and it was Earrings as my guaranteed drop for each one.

Herein lies where you didn’t find an issue with your first runthrough: you were on a DPS—a role not responsible for picking up mobs and taking their punches to the face, nor for keeping the party alive and well. We are talking about the necessity of TANKS upgrading their gear. Because they gain far more in terms of DEF/M.DEF than a DPS does, and it makes a far greater difference.

I didn't bother trying to gear from 1-50. I just simply used my Artifact gear to get tomestones for 130 gear. Thought "50-60 aint much to deal with. I'll just gear at 60." Sure enough. Got to Lv.60 on 130 gear.

Sadly, all the leveling content in HW was nerfed when SB was released. So it’s more than prudent to do all HW leveling content in i130 now. But, again, you’re on a DPS. Upgrades are far more prudent for tanks and healers; DPS can scrape by being undergeared and missing ~50% of the stats they would gain from better gear, but the other two roles cannot.

Back when they were relevant, however, this was not the case. The Vault trucked undergeared tanks and sucked for undergeared healers because they were unable to keep up with the outgoing damage. It was one of the few dungeons that actually provided a wall for some players and actually had teeth to it. But, alas, that’s no longer the case, and it is now a mere shadow of it’s former self.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Yes, defense nearly doubles from i270 -> 280+. But it's actually not a super amazing mitigation that people like to seem it is, it's actually a roughly 11% increase to mitigation at level 70. Of course 11% isn't anything to snuff at, but a tank in i270 riding permanent tank stance would have more mitigation than an i280 tank out of it.The gap widens a bit to 12% if you're at level 69.

Math wizards spent a long time figuring out the mitigation formula for defense, which is:

TRUNC(15004*defence/LvlMod,0)/1000. The lvlmod for 70 is 2170.

Solving the equation for i270 gear (which someone on the first page said was 2286 defense) we get 2286 defense equaling roughly 15.8% mitigation.
Solving the equation for HQ 285 gear (3828 defense) nets us 26.4% mitigation.

Even going a more modest average amount for a tank who keeps up some gear but not all of it who's got a little in the middle between the two extremes of 3000 defense only equals out to 20% give or take, or less than 5% less damage taken than a shire tank.

Documents referenced:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...8_tZF8lM/edit#
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=507084974

So yes, skewing it the most favourably and assuming you've got full 285 HQ gear, it does make a light impact. Being realistic however, not everyone's gonna have full 285 HQ gear; on top of that, proper usage of tank stance and cooldown usage + self heal recovery tools weighs far more strongly on tank damage in Abania than gear does.

OBVIOUSLY you want to keep your gear updated as a tank, I'm not arguing that. Just simply showing that skill on both the tank & the healer has more of a play on tanks 'melting' than gear does.