What exactly IS a White Mage?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I like whm the way it is.

Slowly dying?

[Mansion]

Slowly dying?

It's been dying since early Heavensward. Let's just put an end to it.
Make it a Disciple of Land, and use elemental magic to make plants grow faster or whatever and take it off the raid-scene.

[tinythinker]

Slowly dying?

It's been dying since early Heavensward. Let's just put an end to it.
Make it a Disciple of Land, and use elemental magic to make plants grow faster or whatever and take it off the raid-scene.

Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game. For those who are into progression raiding I understand where some of the frustration comes from, yet there are those without the time or interest for the peak of end-game content. For those who want a really simple to get-into healer that can manage random people tossed together into a roulette, WHM is great. Its simplicity is not a drawback in such situations, it's a bonus. Players who get bored with that can move on to managing a pet or a deck of cards. The lily system is fertile ground for trying to make up for WHM's blandness as players reach higher levels as well as its shortcomings in prog if SE handles it right in 5.0.

[Dualgunner]

Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game. For those who are into progression raiding I understand where some of the frustration comes from, yet there are those without the time or interest for the peak of end-game content. For those who want a really simple to get-into healer that can manage random people tossed together into a roulette, WHM is great. Its simplicity is not a drawback in such situations, it's a bonus. Players who get bored with that can move on to managing a pet or a deck of cards. The lily system is fertile ground for trying to make up for WHM's blandness as players reach higher levels as well as its shortcomings in prog if SE handles it right in 5.0.

People who do not do raid tier content are generally not affected by balance changes either way, so "It only hurts raiders, nobody cares" doesn't seem like an especially strong argument.

[Mansion]

Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game. [...]For those who want a really simple to get-into healer that can manage random people tossed together into a roulette, WHM is great.

I was only joking, but your message brings another topic in actually.
Basically, White Mage is the first healer in the game (the only one that starts at level 1). Its design is straightforward. This button heals one guy, this button heals several people, this button throws a stone at a foe. We get it.
So yes, it is a good job to learn healing, it is a good job to do roulettes with, it does not require a mastering of the game's overall gameplay and system to keep your party alive (I'm exagerating on this one but you get my point, SCH needs a bit more optimization by design).
By this logic, every job is more or less fine. Some are more complicated than others, but they all make sense in a ground level (which is normal mode / dungeons etc.) comparison.

But

Some of the "easier" jobs also do a great job outside of that ground level. RDM is arguably the easiest caster, if not the easiest DPS. But it has a strong identity, a simple but fun dual rotation between casting and rapier poking, high numbers, support tools.
PLD is in my opinion the "easiest" tank, in the way that you see which tools build agro, which tools hit harder, and which tools allow you to survive great damage. But in the raid scene, it does extraordinarily well with another tank. It gives room for optimizing DPS output. I see people coming with the DRK argument so I'm telling in advance I don't play tank that much, and not at all in Savage content so I won't go further on that topic. My point is that each tanking job is enjoyable in casual content and high end raid.
All these jobs have a nice progression through their own leveling (even if it is clunky for some of them, namely MCH).

But WHM has nothing to offer at its lvl 70 peak, compared to ALL other jobs (and not tjust the lillies). It remains simply "push here to heal and push here to DPS if you feel like it". I think the argument actually starts here, because WHM does not get anything significantly interesting the higher it goes in level, and in endgame -while still enjoyable, it's up to everyone's taste- it feels really poor compared to the other healers, and to other jobs in general. It's not even about clipping, weaving options and potencies; it's the overall job design. And yet it is the most popular healer outside of Extreme / Savage.
I understand the devs' position, because you can assume WHM is ok based on the figures of how many people play it anyway, outside of the raiding arena. It's still unfair that the job is awkward in extreme/savage content because they won't touch it for some reason.

[Yuyuka3]

Not everyone is into the raid scene, and WHM is fine for other areas of the game. For those who are into progression raiding I understand where some of the frustration comes from, yet there are those without the time or interest for the peak of end-game content. For those who want a really simple to get-into healer that can manage random people tossed together into a roulette, WHM is great. Its simplicity is not a drawback in such situations, it's a bonus. Players who get bored with that can move on to managing a pet or a deck of cards. The lily system is fertile ground for trying to make up for WHM's blandness as players reach higher levels as well as its shortcomings in prog if SE handles it right in 5.0.

So just because it's fine elsewhere means the job needs to be hamstrung in raids forever? Sorry, I call bulls. I've met ASTs in experts who never used cards on my PLD (which is a pretty good example of an easy, accessible job that is quite sought after because, you know, it actually got shit none other can do while still being easy enough to learn so even noobs can play it decently enough), and SCHs who barely seem to be aware that you can and should micro-manage your fairy. We still cleared, because know what? Balance means jack shit in anything outside of raids, so saying "WHM is fine because it's usable anywhere except raids" is just plain idiotic and if I see this sorry excuse for an argument only one more time I'm going to throw up. The fact that you seem to be one of very few thinking so should also be a pretty good clue that maybe there really is something wrong here. Not saying the group is always right, but if several players who played the job since 2.0 (or longer) tell you there is something wrong, even switched to other jobs for raids because it's easier to get groups that way/it doesn't feel like being a freaking burden, you might want to listen to those people.

[tinythinker]

So just because it's fine elsewhere means the job needs to be hamstrung in raids forever? Sorry, I call bulls. I've met ASTs in experts who never used cards on my PLD (which is a pretty good example of an easy, accessible job that is quite sought after because, you know, it actually got shit none other can do while still being easy enough to learn so even noobs can play it decently enough), and SCHs who barely seem to be aware that you can and should micro-manage your fairy. We still cleared, because know what? Balance means jack shit in anything outside of raids, so saying "WHM is fine because it's usable anywhere except raids" is just plain idiotic and if I see this sorry excuse for an argument only one more time I'm going to throw up. The fact that you seem to be one of very few thinking so should also be a pretty good clue that maybe there really is something wrong here. Not saying the group is always right, but if several players who played the job since 2.0 (or longer) tell you there is something wrong, even switched to other jobs for raids because it's easier to get groups that way/it doesn't feel like being a freaking burden, you might want to listen to those people.

Even in the part you snipped, I mentioned SE having fertile ground for making the job more worthwhile for people at end-game. That comment is clear I am not saying the job feels OK for everyone, and other comments I made in this thread go into that in more detail.

Vomit as you will.

Or, hold on, here was the (joke) comment I was responding to:

It's been dying since early Heavensward. Let's just put an end to it.
Make it a Disciple of Land, and use elemental magic to make plants grow faster or whatever and take it off the raid-scene.

I was responding to this particular perspective, which, while not serious in this case, some people have skated towards in their frustration.

*shrug*

As for those other comments I made in this thread, in them I expand on the comment you quoted and say that:

1. WHM as-is (great for non-prog/DF roulettes, easy to learn/re-learn, simple, etc.) appears to be a strength in SE's eyes.

2. It makes sense that SE would hesitate to mess with the identity or function of WHM if they see those things as strengths for a certain part of the player-base.

3. I get why that can be frustrating to those who want to stand out or be more competitive at end-game.

4. I offer my own ideas on how to try to balance #1/2 and #3. Not the best ideas by a long-shot. But I take the different desires and concerns seriously. It ranges from what many ask for (buff the heck out of WHM damage) to adding a *little* bit of complexity to the job via better use of lilies.


- - - - - -


The other comments, for whatever they are worth. These are short-excerpts of longer material from three larger comments but the arrow at the top goes back to the full text of each:

Longer comment numero uno...

I get it. I've said something similar: WHM is much easier to get into/more accessible. No managing cards or aetherflow or pets. That's "what it is". Unadorned and straightforward.

That's also why the lily gauge feels so tacked on by appearing so far into leveling. There *is no* WHM minigame to manage that relies on some special resource (aetherflow, pets, cards). SE seems to acknowledge that this is "what white mage is" by making lilies nice but optional and ignorable, especially for non-raiders. That keeps the "plain, simple, powerful" theme intact. Confession stacks don't even get a gauge, and outside of less forgiving content they are also nice but easily ignorable...

Longer comment dos...

Yes, as I described a little ealier, it seems SE wants to keep WHM simple and easy to access even at cap, hence lilies and confession stacks added late in the leveling process that are ignorable (confession doesn't even get a gauge). In adding those late extras to WHM they appear to want to avoid introducing much complexity while adding a little something extra for prog players/optimizers. People who only do non-prog content and/or play infrequently/casually can use WHM as easy-to-get-(back)-into job for healing, while the other healing jobs offer more complexity and management of resources. I have dropped in and out of the game a lot over the past 2 1/2 year, and can say that WHM being so basic and easy to use has really helped me jump back in and given me a cushion for making mistakes and some confidence trying new content because it's easy to remember/relearn/use all the way up to the current expert roulette.

Not arguing whether or not this is how SE should approach it, just that this looks like their goal...

Longer comment tres...

My own clumsy, off the top of my head sketch for some of this...

1. Add lililes earlier.

2. Give one or two buttons that rely on/consume lilies.

3. Focus on the theme of WHM in the game -- elemental/nature magic -- for designing a unique contribution (because SE isn't going to heavily prune AST and SCH healing and dps just to let WHM stand out).

How this premise plays out can go many ways. To offer a lackluster, unpolished example...

Not major insights or mind-blowingly awesome suggestions, but if you want to vent because of my words here they are in full for your consideration. If my ideas or opinions suck or are idiotic and unworthy, I want to get credit for the whole package

In any case, I hope 5.0 brings you a WHM you can be happy with however it all turns out.

[Johaandr]

Slowly dying?

sLoWlY DyING
Jeez no its a laid back playstyle compared to my main scholar lol.
Nothing wrong with it. People uses raid, «iT BriNgs NotHing tO thE tEam» excuses. It has frln assize!
Stop the wannabe meta talk n its not viable. That is bullshit and it proves people want to irmpove their dps nowdays and put it on fflogs and get blue logs instead what they expect they could get.
IMO playstyle should matter.

Let me like it the way it is stop being so stupidly bashfull over my single opinion.
Ik lily is unpopular but it has a cool consept lol they need to rework it.