I hope, against all odds, that we get two Magitek classes in 5.0.

[Shurrikhan]

Tank and healer or bust. In all honesty (I hate to throw this around) but I will consider unsubbing it's more DPS jobs again.

Because not one of the tanks or healers are worth playing presently, no 5.x changes will makes them so, and new tank/healer designs will invariably be better than old and would otherwise have redeemed their roster and the game as a whole for you?

Nah, I'm pretty sure they just want something new to try out, like most tanks and healers I'm sure.

There are so many flavors of DPS by now, but only three tanks and healers, it doesn't take long to get bored of playing the same three tanks or healers, especially when they all share gear.

It would be just plain wrong to leave tanks and healers licking their fingers for another expansion while DPS players get even more classes to fiddle with.

Oh I get that. I want to have more fun available to me as a tank/healer, but my point is that, honestly, getting a new job in each either or each roster is no guarantee of a more enjoyable roster after you've gotten use to said job. Personally, I'd likely get more out of the existing jobs being done better -- with more differentiation and flair in their gameplay -- than I would out of a new job, even (and in some ways especially) if that new job blows the others in roster out of the water. That's not to revision and addition are mutually exclusive, either. Of course not. And on principle, by all means, be furious if healers and tanks don't each get a new job in 5.0, but the end result -- whether you're having more fun due to jobs and their gameplay available to you -- is the only result that matters, and it doesn't depend solely on that getting a new job for each.

[Jollyy5]

Because not one of the tanks or healers are worth playing presently, no 5.x changes will makes them so, and new tank/healer designs will invariably be better than old and would otherwise have redeemed their roster and the game as a whole for you?

Nah, I'm pretty sure they just want something new to try out, like most tanks and healers I'm sure.

There are so many flavors of DPS by now, but only three tanks and healers, it doesn't take long to get bored of playing the same three tanks or healers, especially when they all share gear.

It would be just plain wrong to leave tanks and healers licking their fingers for another expansion while DPS players get even more classes to fiddle with.

[Dualgunner]

Nah, I'm pretty sure they just want something new to try out, like most tanks and healers I'm sure.

There are so many flavors of DPS by now, but only three tanks and healers, it doesn't take long to get bored of playing the same three tanks or healers, especially when they all share gear.

It would be just plain wrong to leave tanks and healers licking their fingers for another expansion while DPS players get even more classes to fiddle with.

Sure, general DPS players do. But if I wanted to play specifically a caster I have three choices. Specifically a ranger I only have machinist and bard. Melee DPS are the most oversaturated role currently at having four choices.

Not saying we shouldn't get a new tank or a new healer. I am saying that there's a reason DPS are split into subroles and this "Well DPS have like, 9 choices" is not a point of view I agree with.

[Jandor]

Sure, general DPS players do. But if I wanted to play specifically a caster I have three choices. Specifically a ranger I only have machinist and bard. Melee DPS are the most oversaturated role currently at having four choices.

Not saying we shouldn't get a new tank or a new healer. I am saying that there's a reason DPS are split into subroles and this "Well DPS have like, 9 choices" is not a point of view I agree with.

I can agree with splitting DPS somewhat, but caster and physical ranged are just different flavours of ranged DPS. You have 5 ranged and 4 melee, which is still more than the 3 tanks and 3 healers.

I was kind of hoping BLU would be (if not a tank) a melee DPS, for that sweet 4/4 and 5/5 symmetry.

[Dualgunner]

I can agree with splitting DPS somewhat, but caster and physical ranged are just different flavours of ranged DPS. You have 5 ranged and 4 melee, which is still more than the 3 tanks and 3 healers.

I was kind of hoping BLU would be (if not a tank) a melee DPS, for that sweet 4/4 and 5/5 symmetry.

With that line of thinking, tanks are just a different flavor of melee dps. The roles are separated entirely by cross-role and theme, as well as what's expected of them in the group. Going without a ranger is felt in the group because of the lack of the tools they bring that casters don't.

[Shurrikhan]

With that line of thinking, tanks are just a different flavor of melee dps.

Well, you're not wrong. (Sarcasm noted, but I'm not sure it's quite... warranted.)

The roles are separated entirely by cross-role and theme, as well as what's expected of them in the group. Going without a ranger is felt in the group because of the lack of the tools they bring that casters don't.

So, Bard and MCH are literally Refresh/Minne_and_it's_lesser_LB-costing_cousin,_Dismantle?

Again... not wrong. Scary admitting that, though.

[Dualgunner]

Well, you're not wrong. (Sarcasm noted, but I'm not sure it's quite... warranted.)

It wasn't meant to be sarcasm. More just a statement that we can draw lines and pull lines out wherever we want to. Admittedly, I presented my original post in this thread as a fact; I apologize and will amend:

It is my opinion that this game is split into five roles: Tanks, Healers, Melee, Rangers, and Casters.

EDIT: To add,

I'm not saying we shouldn't get a new tank and healer. The only reason I even bring this up is, from my perspective, there is actually almost no disparity right now in selecting a role you could want to play.

So, Bard and MCH are literally Refresh/Minne_and_it's_lesser_LB-costing_cousin,_Dismantle?

Again... not wrong. Scary admitting that, though.

I'm drifting into opinion, but also interpretation of the mechanics we've been presented thus far, but...sort of? It's always seemed, at least to me, that Bard (and by extension Machinist which was introduced to be the same role as Bard) was meant to be the closest this game got to having a Synergist role. And for its part right now, Bard is an amazing synergist: 2% constant crit buffs, unparalleled resource regeneration, Battle Voice facilitating increased DHit rate and Foe's being a straight damage increase.

In contrast, the Caster role is a different game of risk/reward. It's a game of finding where to stand still in a system that punishes idling in one spot, with Black Mage being the apex of this role. Personally speaking, it feels weird to try and categorize Casters and Rangers into the same role, because not only do they play incredibly differently, their primary gameloop to achieving DPS is entirely different. I could just as well say, in this focus, that a tank is just a beefier melee dps, trading its focus on positionals into focus on directing and mitigating outgoing damage.

[Jandor]

With that line of thinking, tanks are just a different flavor of melee dps. The roles are separated entirely by cross-role and theme, as well as what's expected of them in the group. Going without a ranger is felt in the group because of the lack of the tools they bring that casters don't.

I mean, you say originally that you don't really agree with "Well DPS have like, 9 choices" but at the end of the day, with maybe the exception of Ultimate, a group can pick any 4 of the 9 and clear.

They'll be making things more difficult for themselves by ignoring the sub-roles with the group, but they won't be making it impossible like they would be by trying to drop tanks for more melee DPS.

Not that I'm against getting another ranger, or making the sub roles within the DPS group more distinct. I just want my new tank (and healer) first.

[Dualgunner]

I mean, you say originally that you don't really agree with "Well DPS have like, 9 choices" but at the end of the day, with maybe the exception of Ultimate, a group can pick any 4 of the 9 and clear.

That doesn't mean that if I want to play a caster, I have five options. (Technically, I have six--three healing oriented casters, and 3 damage oriented casters, but that's in the same vein that I have 3 defense oriented melee and four offense oriented melee. Which leaves us in 7/6/2 with rangers being the odd ones out). It all depends where one decides to draw the line. I personally draw it at 3t/3h/4m/3c/2r.

They'll be making things more difficult for themselves by ignoring the sub-roles with the group, but they won't be making it impossible like they would be by trying to drop tanks for more melee DPS.

Solo tanking and solo healing things is something a lot of people do. It makes things more difficult but then again, so does ignoring sub-roles like you said.

You can stretch the boundaries and go solo-heal and solo-tank for a lot of duties. Even Ultimate can be solo-healed.

Not that I'm against getting another ranger, or making the sub roles within the DPS group more distinct. I just want my new tank (and healer) first.

That is completely fair. I'll keep reiterating because I want to be clear: I'm not against a new tank and healer. I'm merely voicing my opinion on how the job spread looks in my view, and how from my point of view the role spread is pretty even. I'm also all for sub roles in DPS becoming more distinct, give MCH a way to compete with BRD without screwing over caster balance.

In fact, if you look at it this way, the expansions have even become almost formulaic in the new jobs they give us. We got a caster and a melee in 2.x (SMN and NIN); we got a ranger, tank, and healer in 3.x (MCH, DRK, AST); we got a caster and a melee in 4.x (RDM and SAM). Although we did also get SCH in 2.x.

So it would only make sense we'd get a tank and healer in 5.x. Admittedly, the formula is broken by SCH and, though in its current state I disagree it's a caster that can be counted in our job selection, BLU. As much as I personally would love Soldier to be a DPS (for one reason, I have crippling tankxiety and wouldn't be able to really play a Gunblade tank; for another, ew gross another slashing tank can't they give tanks something different?), I can absolutely see it as a tank.

Actually, my dream spread would have been BLU tank DNC heal and SLD as ranger with melee elements.