Don't like Blue Mage? Here is how to convince SE to change it...

[Acidblood]

I am looking forward to Blue Mage and its content, and genuinely believe (from what they have shown) that it will be fun to play.

I do however completely agree with the OP; if Blue Mage turns out to be flawed (as with SB WHM / MCH / DRK, Diadem, Eureka, etc.) then I will provide my informed feedback and, depending on how ‘bad’ it is, avoid playing the job / content until such time as it is updated to be more enjoyable (which may be never).

This is no gift, it's a slap in the face.

Serious question: Would you prefer that Blue Mage was never implmented? That Yoshi P simply said 'too hard' and left it at that?
(And before you answer 'I would prefer they implemented it as a normal job', assume that they wouldn't; that it's this version of Blue Mage or nothing at all, ever).

[Shurrikhan]

Serious question: Would you prefer that Blue Mage was never implmented? That Yoshi P simply said 'too hard' and left it at that?
(And before you answer 'I would prefer they implemented it as a normal job', assume that they wouldn't; that it's this version of Blue Mage or nothing at all, ever).

So, why should we assume that, when the ultimatum is utterly false?

One's options are not limited to solely "endorse everything you hate about something you pay for" or "stop paying for it".
Nor are our options here solely "get a butchered BLU" or "don't get BLU at all".

Why are people so happy to jump onto these fallacies? Is it just so they can take a side in pinning vaguely spun ideologies against each other, despite the issue having nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with the details and context of implementation?

People seem to be a bit too obsessed with blue mage. It really has 2 main options for things like raids.

1: It's overpowered as hell because of what they can learn and no raid group would ever not want one since they just break the raid.

2: It's useless since its abilities don't even work on the bosses.

The way they have BLU coming in is really the only viable way while keeping the job identity intact. I for one, intend to play it. Sounds like a fun side activity. If it were a regular job I'd play it as much as I play other jobs that aren't WHM these days: not at all.

There's a simple and precedented solution for that, resistance modifiers -- or, more elegantly, potency-percentile conversions. The stronger the mob, the less they're affected by a Slow, such that the damage reduced from a trash mob and a boss are very similar despite their varying power levels. The stronger the mob, the lower the chance of their dying from Death given missing %HP (bosses immune); the less damage taken from missing %HP on Pumpkin Drop; the less Blind reduces percentile accuracy (or, simply, it reduces Accuracy by a flat amount, which bosses have a hell of a lot more of); etc., etc.

[Acidblood]

So, why should we assume that, when the ultimatum is utterly false?

One's options are not limited to solely "endorse everything you hate about something you pay for" or "stop paying for it".
Nor are our options here solely "get a butchered BLU" or "don't get BLU at all".

I'm trying to work out if the backlash over Blue Mage is mostly due to the way that Blue Mage has been implemented, or simply (assuming) that Blue Mage will never be playable in high-end duties / raids?

i.e. Would you be just as angry if, when asked about Blue Mage, Yoshi P had said 'nope, never going to happen'?

[Shurrikhan]

I'm trying to work out if the backlash over Blue Mage is mostly due to the way that Blue Mage has been implemented, or simply (assuming) that Blue Mage will never be playable in high-end duties / raids?

Those are one and the same. It doesn't need to have been implemented in a template fashion to have been made balanced for use in high-end duties. Instead, we've been given an implementation that precedents all further unique jobs being segregated from the real game, alike to another minigame or FATE-grind gimmick.

i.e. Would you be just as angry if, when asked about Blue Mage, Yoshi P had said 'nope, never going to happen'?

Yes. Though, to me those are again one and the same. The game will not receive Blue Mage. Instead, a minigame will receive the name, Blue Mage.


//

These bimodals question are of little benefit, though. Asking whether someone would like to be shot in the left leg or the right, or be paid the first half of their wages or the second half does nothing to address the real problem.

The better question would be something like "How can adding BLU improve the user experience?"

We've got the excuse to send people back into the 1-50 world to populate it for newcomers joining before Shadowbringers. Check.
We've got a neat bit of side-content in the form of Masked Carnival. Check.
But that's just a couple possibilities out of dozens. And yet, that's where the devs seem perfectly willing to draw the line, and not just "for the time being".

[Fyce]

Instead, we've been given an implementation that precedents all further unique jobs being segregated from the real game, alike to another minigame or FATE-grind gimmick.

While that's true, there's no evidence to suggest that BLU would've ever been implemented in the game without the "Limited Job" system. No matter if it was feasible or not.

[Bernhardt]

While that's true, there's no evidence to suggest that BLU would've ever been implemented in the game without the "Limited Job" system. No matter if it was feasible or not.

So now instead of people getting excited that their favorite up and coming FF job getting implemented in the game, they now have to hold their breath and hope they're not the "lucky" job that gets limited.

[Fyce]

So now instead of people getting excited that their favorite up and coming FF job getting implemented in the game, they now have to hold their breath and hope they're not the "lucky" job that gets limited.

There's basically three options for Jobs coming after 4.5:
1. Job getting implemented and shoehorned to fit the mold of Normal Jobs.
2. Job getting implemented with a unique system/gimmick so special that it has to be a Limited Job.
3. Job not getting implemented.

(If you want a 4th option, which would be getting the positives from 1 and 2, you basically have to change the mold itself. Which is not a light thing at all. And at this point you'd probably be better off asking for Final Fantasy XIV-2.)

My point was to say that if option 2 wasn't created, Blue Mage (and every possible future Limited Jobs) could've very well ended up in option 3. I'm not talking about "hoping your job won't be implemented as a limited job", I'm talking about "hoping your job will be implemented at all".

Lots of people are saying that BLU could've existed as a "Normal Job" instead of a "Limited Job". I'm just saying that it could've also very well be nothing at all.

Tl;Dr: Sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils.

[Acidblood]

snip

Thank you for answering.

And since you asked:

1. How exactly were you expecting Blue Mage, assuming it was implemented as a normal job, to be?
2. What user experience were you expecting (if any) that couldn't be gotten from another job?

Edit: For me personally, and given FFXIV's narrow combat and encounter design, I wouldn't have expected much, maybe a DoT mage with a heal (assuming ‘Caster DPS’ as a role). At least that wouldn't have been, button order aside, entirely a clone of RDM or SCH, however I certainly wouldn't have expected it to feel like a Blue Mage (similar to how I don't feel RDM feels much like a Red Mage) due to the extreme focus on DPS, and almost non-existence of significant debuffs, or buffs / heals beyond a limit, in FFXIV.

[Shurrikhan]

Thank you answering.

And since you asked:

1. How exactly were you expecting Blue Mage, assuming it was implemented as a normal job, to be?
2. What user experience were you expecting (if any) that couldn't be gotten from another job?

Edit: For me personally, and given FFXIV's narrow combat and encounter design, I wouldn't have expected much, maybe a DoT mage with a heal (assuming ‘Caster DPS’ as a role). At least that wouldn't have been, button order aside, entirely a clone of RDM or SCH, however I certainly wouldn't have expected it to feel like a Blue Mage (similar to how I don't feel RDM feels much like a Red Mage) due to the extreme focus on DPS, and almost non-existence of significant debuffs, or buffs / heals beyond a limit, in FFXIV.

1.
I wasn't expecting it to be implemented until we'd first had previewed sweeping changes to job design favoring cohesion, identity, and versatility over templates. With those changes in place, the minimal further effort would be required to integrate BLU, while BLU in turn could promote further beneficial changes.

2.
None, ultimately, save for its "moments of glory" in combat, which would not be unique for having them -- only in the shape they take. All else, I'd actually hope would gradually become the property of all jobs for whom it'd at all make sense.
Learning skills from who you fight and how you fight them? Sold. I'll buy that for everyone, albeit to a lesser degree.
Combos not as chains but as inherent synergies between different effects, bonuses, or aspects within different skills? Sold. I'll buy it for everyone.
BLU could be the first to prototype the change, letting the devs test the waters and give a poster boy to the potential change, but it should be in the interest of universal design where possible.

That said, I do think BLU would still have enough of its aesthetic unique to it even if you were to make, to some degree, universal its every addition to the systems or undermechanics of the game. This, again, comes down to moments of glory in the fight, and the things you can laugh about or discuss outside the fight.

BLM has its Flarex3+Foulx2 potential burst. SMN can burst out a Summon Behemoth if needed. Bard has repertoire proc overloads. Monk has its twists and turns in rotation at certain SkS breakpoints from RoF, TK, and PB, and very satisfying perfect RoFs. I suspect BLU would have its own, though at first far more varied, moment such as those, in a panic Healing Rain set earlier to make sure the raid could survive the continuous raid damage of Lightning Phase doubling into Slime Pools and sourcing Whirlpool when adds spawned just as a ton of lightning strikes hit the raid -- their damage then channeling through the soaked ground beneath them and into the adds suddenly grouped up by Whirlpool.

Out of combat, that would be things like your "deck", if the "Pick X of Y" concept sticks, and the ridiculous names people come up with for their builds, weighing breadth vs. depth of synergy and capacity.

[Acidblood]

1.
I wasn't expecting it to be implemented until we'd first had previewed sweeping changes to job design favoring cohesion, identity, and versatility over templates. With those changes in place, the minimal further effort would be required to integrate BLU, while BLU in turn could promote further beneficial changes.

2.
None, ultimately, save for its "moments of glory" in combat, which would not be unique for having them -- only in the shape they take. All else, I'd actually hope would gradually become the property of all jobs for whom it'd at all make sense.
Learning skills from who you fight and how you fight them? Sold. I'll buy that for everyone, albeit to a lesser degree.
Combos not as chains but as inherent synergies between different effects, bonuses, or aspects within different skills? Sold. I'll buy it for everyone.
BLU could be the first to prototype the change, letting the devs test the waters and give a poster boy to the potential change, but it should be in the interest of universal design where possible.

:snip:

As much as I would like to see something similar, it is simply not realistic at the moment, to say nothing of the risk. Which is why I think it's smart that they have implemented Blue Mage the way they have; if their intention is to open up and expand the combat system then Blue Mage is the perfect 'test bed' for it (i.e. there is no type of ability that is out of place for a Blue Mage). And by making it 'limited' they can test and gather feedback with minimal risk of disrupting the established game (such as accidentally making a current tier raid bosses killable with Death).

This is pure speculation of course, which is why I framed my questions the way I did; this is the here and now, we must deal with reality, so given the realistic choices, which is the lesser of the evils.