About the Emperor [Major Spoilers for 4.4]

[Remedi]

Those ascians aren't coming back? How you are sure of that? Because of the mask? I think we require more proof, also we know that forcibly removing the ascians is a big no-no.
In fact I think that Gaius atm is a wildcard that can be a boon and a curse to us.
Besides my point was that the alliance can be used. Ascians have always played both parties for their end.
They created an empire hellbent on killing primals and at the same time they give plenty of means for the summoning of primals. They don't care about 1 side prevailing on the other since that will not bring chaos wich is what they want as such we should stop playing this rigged game.

[ObsidianFire]

Those ascians aren't coming back? How you are sure of that? Because of the mask? I think we require more proof, also we know that forcibly removing the ascians is a big no-no.

I said that the minimum Shadowhunter did was find out that Ascians were possessing people and made them stop possessing people without killing the Ascians as well (I don't see Giaus collecting trophies if he didn't do this). Even the WoL has only managed to do that once and that was when the Ascian doing the possessing showed off that they had been possessing someone. However, there's nothing that says he hasn't permanently killed them either, so that option is still on the table.

They don't care about 1 side prevailing on the other since that will not bring chaos wich is what they want as such we should stop playing this rigged game.

Of course the Ascians want more chaos. However, the Eorzean Alliance is trying to cause the least amount of chaos they can rather then the most. It would cause far more chaos if the Eorzean Alliance really did invade Garlemald. Instead, they're content to tell Garlemald the truth about Zenos being possessed and then seeing what Garlemald does with it before doing anything more drastic. And the same thing goes for Varis; he doesn't want to invade Ala Mhigo any more then the Eorzean Alliance wants to invade Garlemald. However, it's way easier (and less of a logistical nightmare) for the Ascians to put pressure on the Garlean Empire with it's one main leader then it is to put pressure on the Eorzean Alliance with it's five different leaders.

It's a lot harder to manipulate people when they know you're trying to manipulate them and the Eorzean Alliance has a lot more peer-reviewing built into making it's decisions then the Garlean Empire does. And it has the Scions who know how Ascian possession of living people works (find the Crystal of Darkness!). An Ascian trying to directly manipulate the Eorzean Alliance is going to have a lot more hoops to jump through then one (or two as the case is) that is trying to manipulate the Garlean Empire. I have no doubt that is a major reason the Garlean Senate no longer has any administrative power. Trying to manipulate everyone in it to do the same thing would be hard to orchestrate. Manipulating an Emperor though? Much easier.

[Remedi]

That was Thancred Idea, he can't come up with new ideas for the time moment, next time someone wants to take action we'll play in their hand.
Also no, you might know that they'll try to manipulate you, but you don't know how, so far killing primals for example was always part of the plan, we don't have moments where we have subverted manipulations as far as I can remember, we've been plently played like a fiddle in many situations. So forgive If I'm sceptic of being able to escape manipulation.
Even the stunt that Urianger developed for the warriors of darkness actually helped the ascians in the end according to Elidubus and Urianger too has been removed from the picture.
Frankly I'm starting to think that the calling was idd an ascian effort simply because they removed 3 pieces that were either dangerous with their minds or caught a glimpse of something ( the aether flux).
I'm not sure that any of the leader of the alliance is actually capable of witstanding any kind of manipulation atm and tbh I'm wondering about their competence in war considering how the war effort from the peaks to the lochs went.

[ObsidianFire]

That was Thancred Idea, he can't come up with new ideas for the time moment, next time someone wants to take action we'll play in their hand.

It might have been Thancred's idea. But everyone in the Eorzean Alliance decides to go though with it. Thancred and the other Scions being taken out of the picture only make the other Alliance leaders want to make sure Thancred's and the Scions ideas work all the more. No one wants to be in a direct conflict with Garlemald.

Also no, you might know that they'll try to manipulate you, but you don't know how, so far killing primals for example was always part of the plan, we don't have moments where we have subverted manipulations as far as I can remember, we've been plently played like a fiddle in many situations. So forgive If I'm sceptic of being able to escape manipulation.

The Ascians would prefer it if we didn't kill Primals. The longer Primals are alive, the more aether they suck out of Hydaelyen and the faster another Rejoining comes about. The Ascians as a whole have been very open to to explaining what they are trying to do to the Warrior of Light. If anything, they can't shut up about it. We have a pretty good idea of what the Ascians want. At least, the Ascians that aren't Elidibus. They want more conflict, not less. The Alliance is purposely not engaging in direct conflict with Garlemald.

Even the stunt that Urianger developed for the warriors of darkness actually helped the ascians in the end according to Elidubus and Urianger too has been removed from the picture.

Where does Elidibus say this? Elidibus wanted the Warriors of Darkness to prevent their shard from falling by creating more darkness by being an obstacle to Hydaelyn and the Warrior of Light. Only that's not what happened. It turns out it's possible to balance out light and darkness without having to increase darkness. Instead, Hydaleyn takes in the extra light from the WoD's shard and it's implied that will give her more power in the long run. Something the Ascians have been trying to prevent for a very long time.

Frankly I'm starting to think that the calling was idd an ascian effort simply because they removed 3 pieces that were either dangerous with their minds or caught a glimpse of something ( the aether flux).

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. There's so many unknowns surrounding the Voice, I don't even have any reaction to it or the Scions being Called out of their bodies yet.

I'm not sure that any of the leader of the alliance is actually capable of witstanding any kind of manipulation atm and tbh I'm wondering about their competence in war considering how the war effort from the peaks to the lochs went.

Just about everyone (The Alliance, Shadowhunter, etc.) agrees that the Eorzean Alliance had no business of wining the fight in Ala Mhigo as fast as they did. That has everything to do with Zenos not caring about anything except having an even fight with the WoL. The war in Ala Mhigo says very little about the Alliance's military might and everything about how selfish Zenos is.

The Alliance is harder to manipulate do to the shear number of people running it. It doesn't have anything to do with the Alliance being special in some way. Manipulating one person (Varis) is easy. Manipulating five different people (Kann-E, Almeric, Merlwyb, Nanamo, Rauban) and all of their advisors (Lucia, Lyse, all the Grand Company Marshals) and the Scions (even just the ones that are still around)? Much, much harder. They all know each other well enough that if any of them does something weird or has a sudden reversal of policy, the rest of the leaders or advisors will know something wrong is going on. They'd pretty much all have to be manipulated at the same time and all have very good reasons not to talk to each other about it. Which I don't see happening. The Alliance Leaders aren't just political allies, but each other's friends. There's so many opportunities for someone to realize something not-normal is going on and start investigating what is going on that I have a very, very hard time seeing a singular Ascian influencing much. You'd need a lot more Ascians then we're used to seeing to all be working together for it to work. And the Ascians have never had the easiest time working together, subtly anyway...

Varis can be easily manipulated because there's no one else leading the Garlean Empire but him. He's leading an Empire after winning a civil war for the throne and is hated by a lot of people. He needs to keep his grip on the Empire and the Founder of the Empire and his Heir are both threatening to take the Empire away from him. And given how Ascians can posses people, it wouldn't even be that hard to do. And Varis knows it. The only question now is how far will he be willing to go to say Emperor.

[YianKutku]

The Alliance is harder to manipulate do to the shear number of people running it. It doesn't have anything to do with the Alliance being special in some way. Manipulating one person (Varis) is easy. Manipulating five different people (Kann-E, Almeric, Merlwyb, Nanamo, Rauban) and all of their advisors (Lucia, Lyse, all the Grand Company Marshals) and the Scions (even just the ones that are still around)? Much, much harder. They all know each other well enough that if any of them does something weird or has a sudden reversal of policy, the rest of the leaders or advisors will know something wrong is going on. They'd pretty much all have to be manipulated at the same time and all have very good reasons not to talk to each other about it. Which I don't see happening. The Alliance Leaders aren't just political allies, but each other's friends. There's so many opportunities for someone to realize something not-normal is going on and start investigating what is going on that I have a very, very hard time seeing a singular Ascian influencing much. You'd need a lot more Ascians then we're used to seeing to all be working together for it to work. And the Ascians have never had the easiest time working together, subtly anyway...

It's always been a competition between the Ascians to destabilize the Eorzean city-states, and the Eorzean leaders to try to keep it stable. The problems the members of the Eorzean Alliance face are still present, and requiring attention: the Syndicate Monetarists, the unstable Ala Mhigan government, the political upheaval in Ishgard, the restive pirates of Vylbrand, the fragile balance of the Elementals of the Shroud... the Eorzean Alliance is united right now in opposition to the Garlean Empire, but the Ascians can always try to stir up internal troubles once again, and the leaders will have to convince their own governments and populations of the need to help out those which had until recently been their own rivals. As the 60-70 BRD questline shows, it won't take very much for dissent in the Eorzean Alliance to spread and cause major problems.

For example, right now the leaders of the Eorzean Alliance are friends (or at least close colleagues), but the leaders are theoretically allowed to be replaced. Kan-E and Merlwyb are probably safe (Kan-E has Padjal job immunity, Merlwyb can outsail and outfight any potential Trident challengers), Aymeric has high popularity ratings, but Nanamo still has to deal with the Syndicate (which might not even be aimed at her; just their usual cut-throat maneuverings might cause issues on their own by complete coincidence), and Raubahn and Lyse are still working on Ala Mhigo and could be replaced at any time.

Of course, given that the Ascians seem to have gone all-in on Garlemald at the moment, that probably means the Ascians have their own problems with basic strategy. And obviously the Eorzean leaders aren't going to just sit there and take any attacks on their positions passively.

[Cilia]

The line between oppressed and oppressors is very thin, Thancred was very smart in telling the alliance that they idea of frontal assault is moronic because that would only galvanize all of Garlemand against other races, which is BTW what the ascians want.

That was already accomplished by manipulating Yotsuyu into summoning an eikon. There's no stopping a conflict at this point, just attempting to mitigate how bad it gets.

If there weren't Ascian puppeteers behind the Empire, it might be possible to prevent the conflict. As things are now, though?

Garlemand is being used by the ascians, but we are too in a sense. You can bet all you want that they don't really care for Garlemand winning in the end.

They don't really care who wins, so long as there's conflict.

You can't defeat entropy.

EDIT
While conflict itself is a goal of the Ascians, the Empire winning would set things up for further conflict due to the brutality with which it treats conquered peoples and the fact it's intended to continue waging war against other countries until it conquers the planet. (What then?)

[Remedi]

Remember that 30% of the citizens of the capital aren't Garleans. Full citizens not aans, so ppl like Asahi or Rhitatyn. I get why ppl say that the system is wrong, but it's more probably that the problems lie with the ppl, since the system itself would allow non garlean birth can get to full citizenship and on high places since the social standing is based on merit not birth or wealth.
The exact details of how their merit works is what I would like to know more in depth before handing a judgment but atm if you were to remove the pureblood assholes the situation in most garlean controlled countries the situation would be better, I mean in the Ala mhigo piece of the lorebook 2 they said that they brought in new tech like a better illiumination and a sewer system, the wrong of that is that only citizens are allowed such novelties and THAT has to change.

[YianKutku]

Remember that 30% of the citizens of the capital aren't Garleans. Full citizens not aans, so ppl like Asahi or Rhitatyn. I get why ppl say that the system is wrong, but it's more probably that the problems lie with the ppl, since the system itself would allow non garlean birth can get to full citizenship and on high places since the social standing is based on merit not birth or wealth.

The official stance is that advancement is merit-based, but in practice it's very clear that it's still based on racial and class prejudice. (See Fordola, and also why the highest rank a non-pureblood can reach is only "sas".)

So when I say it's "systemic", I am referring to the actual system that is in place, rather than the one that the Empire claims.

[Cilia]

The Empire's claim to meritocracy seems to... vary.

van Baelsar seems to have been a firm believer in the concept, though that doesn't seem to be the case for most other Imperials we've met. Rhitahtyn and Fordola both got their high rankings under his command, and he even accuses the soldiers of abandoning Rhitahtyn to his death at Cape Westwind (untrue - Rhitahtyn told them to leave so we wouldn't kill them in the battle). Varis also promoted van Hydrus on merit, though this could be seen as blending with nepotism a bit (van Hydrus helped Varis become Emperor, which he rewarded by giving him the rank of Legatus... if I remember correctly).

On the other hand, the racism coming from nearly every other Imperial is blatant. This is probably hammered home best with both mal Asina's declaration that the Garleans are superior, both physically and intellectually (except their inability to wield magicks), and Fordola's painful acknowledgement that you won't be treated as an equal unless you prove yourself to be exceptionally superior to Garleans. (There's even a bit of sexism there too, with Imperial soldiers implying Fordola only got her rank by whoring herself out, rather than because she deserved it.) This could be seen as purely due to Zenos' malign influence, but even van Hydrus repeatedly refers to the Eorzeans he interacts with as savages... so it's not quite so contained.

If memory serves right the "sas" limitation only applies to naturalized citizens - those born into the Empire can (theoretically) go as far as their merit takes them (up to "van," but "wir / yae / zos" is still reserved for the royal family), but integrated peoples can't advance further. My memory might not be right, though, and if it's wrong that is literally institutionalized racism.

Class divides, even among Garleans, are also there. Again, shaky memory, but I believe it was mentioned that van Hydrus came from common birth, which is why so many of the other Imperial Legatuses (nobles) were opposed to his promotion and why there were efforts to sabotage his mission on Azys Lla that led to Sophia's release.

... while the Empire says it's meritocratic, that's not necessarily true. What things say on paper and how they work in practice are often two different things.

[Kusanagi7]

1 thing i hope is when the empire changes they get rid of the class system such a pain -_-