About the Emperor [Major Spoilers for 4.4]

[Theodric]

This is very, very hard to justify when the oppresion the Garleans went through in Othard happened well over 800 years ago. And just about all the infornation we have on what the Garleans were doing in the past 800 years seems to paint them as having terretorial disputes that are as run-of-the-mill as the terretorial disputes going on in Eorzea at the time. Until someone we now know to be an Ascian made a power grab...

Lore Book 2 really can not come soon enough...

It's easy to justify. They were pushed to near extinction. Furthermore, being unable to manipulate aether is a huge disadvantage when accounting for life on Hydaelyn - which isn't particularly pleasant to begin with for the vast majority of those living on the planet. Garlemald itself is described as a frigid wasteland - and if not for the presence of ceruleum they wouldn't have survived the harsh winters. Crops and fish can only be grown/caught during specific windows which meant no real luxuries in their diets. Bear in mind, the discovery of magitek is a fairly recent thing...which means that they've been living lives of hardship for generations. It's fair to state that their recorded history would have explained that they were pushed out of more fertile lands, breeding resentment in the process. Especially when accounting for their numbers being fairly low as a consequence of the harsh environment.

Those territorial disputes were also likely necessary for the survival of the Garlean race. On that note, they're hardly the first race to forcibly unite tribes in order to forge a stronger nation. It happened with the Hingans. It happened with the Domans. It happened with the Ala Mhigans.

As for the lore book, the track record thus far has been for lore revelations to show that things aren't black or white where Garlemald is concerned. I do not expect that to change. Outside of a small portion of characters, very few elements of FFXIV are purely black or white.

[Lauront]

This is very, very hard to justify when the oppresion the Garleans went through in Othard happened well over 800 years ago. And just about all the infornation we have on what the Garleans were doing in the past 800 years seems to paint them as having terretorial disputes that are as run-of-the-mill as the terretorial disputes going on in Eorzea at the time. Until someone we now know to be an Ascian made a power grab...

Lore Book 2 really can not come soon enough...

No. No one is referring to Othard when discussing that, so that's a red herring. The lorebook in fact suggests that these were not run of the mill "territorial disputes" but a struggle for survival, in the section on the early Republic.

https://14kuponuts.tumblr.com/post/1...-history-other

I'm sure many people are eager for lore book v2.0 to come out, so they can also try dismiss it as much as possible where it doesn't fit their headcanon.

Really, Garlemald isn't as different to the existing city-states as many would like to imagine it is (Alisaie is even disgusted by their pseudo moral posturing early on in ARR, taking credit for work the Scions did and do), and they in turn are not innocent little sheep being devoured by the Garlean wolf, so I am looking forward to this mindset fading away. They all have rather shady pasts and, in some cases, shady present state of affairs.

[Iscah]

Garlemald of the past might have been "just another city-state", but we now know that Garlemald of the present is a deliberate tool of the Ascians.

[Lauront]

We know that the Ascians are using the Empire's power to further their goals - correct. In that sense, the Garleans are being used by them, and most unwittingly, because they will have no idea about it - even the Emperor's state of knowledge is something we have not been given information on as yet.

We also know that the Ascians would have seen to it that the Primals/Eikons become a threat irrespective of whether they could do it through the Empire, or through some other city-state, like Ishgard. Because that's their job and they have the power, motive and means to implement their goals in any way necessary. As such, the Primals/Eikons will remain a threat for as long as the Ascians have need of it, with or without Garlemald under their control.

[ObsidianFire]

The Garlean Republic was 800 years old when it became an Empire and we know the Garleans were in northern Ilsabard long enough to found cities before they were a Republic. So that's at least 20 generations or Garleans who have lived in the same place. That's enough generations for me to think that the Garleans were probably thinking of themselves as IIsabardians and not as former Othardians for quite a while by the time they became an Empire. In fact, I can't remember anywhere in the lore that it gives the Garlean's exodous to Ilsabard as the reason behind the Garlean Empire's initial conquests. Implied, yes; confirmed to be the reason (at least until the lie about the Burn was told), no. If the Garlean lore nerds know where that was stated, I'd be interested in finding it.

[Cilia]

The lorebook states that they were the oppressed once and that Solus methods were approved because they were seen as reveng for their past treatments. Doesn't excuse them yes, but saying that they had no validation whatsoever is wrong, unless ofc the lorebook is liying too

Revenge isn't really a valid reason for doing much of anything - and if you've been paying attention the game's narrative hasn't been particularly kind in portraying anyone seeking revenge in a positive light. The most vengeful character on the protagonists' side was Estinien, and he remarked that his vengeance felt empty after getting it.

Speaking to the NPC's hanging around the Prima Vista reveals that Livia sas Junius responded with force in Dalmasca as a consequence of Garlean settlers - aka civilians - being slain by Dalmascan insurgents.

Killing civilians is unacceptable, but given the non-citizen (re: slave) status of the native population (in majority or in whole), what recourse would the Dalmascans have but violent resistance?

It's easy to justify. They were pushed to near extinction. Furthermore, being unable to manipulate aether is a huge disadvantage when accounting for life on Hydaelyn - which isn't particularly pleasant to begin with for the vast majority of those living on the planet. Garlemald itself is described as a frigid wasteland - and if not for the presence of ceruleum they wouldn't have survived the harsh winters. Crops and fish can only be grown/caught during specific windows which meant no real luxuries in their diets. Bear in mind, the discovery of magitek is a fairly recent thing...which means that they've been living lives of hardship for generations. It's fair to state that their recorded history would have explained that they were pushed out of more fertile lands, breeding resentment in the process. Especially when accounting for their numbers being fairly low as a consequence of the harsh environment.

They survived centuries. Perhaps without luxuries, but they survived, and if it was for 800+ years - with natural disasters, famines, attacks from neighboring nations / tribes, colder than usual winters (considering the climate) etc. taken into consideration - "near extinction" sounds like hyperbole. The Lore Book says the Garleans, prior to the Empire, were "few in number" but their population nonetheless slowly grew. Do you have a reference for "near extinction" population levels?

[Remedi]

The line between oppressed and oppressors is very thin, Thancred was very smart in telling the alliance that they idea of frontal assault is moronic because that would only galvanize all of Garlemand against other races, which is BTW what the ascians want.
Garlemand is being used by the ascians, but we are too in a sense. You can bet all you want that they don't really care for Garlemand winning in the end.
Remember that they played both Allaga and Meracydia

[Theodric]

They survived centuries. Perhaps without luxuries, but they survived, and if it was for 800+ years - with natural disasters, famines, attacks from neighboring nations / tribes, colder than usual winters (considering the climate) etc. taken into consideration - "near extinction" sounds like hyperbole. The Lore Book says the Garleans, prior to the Empire, were "few in number" but their population nonetheless slowly grew. Do you have a reference for "near extinction" population levels?

The lore book states that if not for the presence of ceruleum they would have perished. When people are pushed to the brink and every day is a struggle then it's easy to understand why they'd jump at the opportunity to improve their fortunes. So, too, has it been the case in the real world throughout both distant and recent history. To understand Garlemald, one needs to view it through the lens of a people who have never really had a taste of comfort and stability until they started taking things by force.

Which, I'd point out, is something that is common in the history of many of Hydaelyn's nations.

The line between oppressed and oppressors is very thin, Thancred was very smart in telling the alliance that they idea of frontal assault is moronic because that would only galvanize all of Garlemand against other races, which is BTW what the ascians want.
Garlemand is being used by the ascians, but we are too in a sense. You can bet all you want that they don't really care for Garlemand winning in the end.
Remember that they played both Allaga and Meracydia

Mm. We're due a twist on FFXII, I suspect. Especially with Varis quoting Vayne almost word for word...and the Return to Ivalice raids giving us a load of Garlean lore.

[ObsidianFire]

Garlemand is being used by the ascians, but we are too in a sense.

I get the feeling this is much less the case then it used to be, at least when it comes to us (and probably the Eorzean Alliance) being used by the Ascians. Until the end of 4.0, Elidibus seemed fine with having the WoL around. From his introduction in the 2.x series, he mostly left us alone. In the 3.x series, he got a bit more involved after Lahabrea screwed up, but he still worked mostly though proxies. He all but threw Unakalhai and the Warring Triad problem into our laps and was more then happy to send the Warriors of Darkness our way. Even though he didn't mention to the WoD that they should try and get in contact with Hydaelyn, he didn't try to stop the WoL and the Scions from trying to do that either.

This "hands-off" approach ends at the end of 4.0. He inhabits Zenos' body, which is very recognizable and has a lot of influence and proceeds to involve himself in affairs on Hydaelyn like never before. In 4.3, he uses that influence to orchestrate a primal summoning to discredit a Garlean political faction. In 4.4, he tells Varis to go take back Ala Mhigo and when that doesn't work, says he can kill the WoL easily so long Varis retains the charade of Varis being the one in charge. And he's probably the one who got Solus to come out of retirement. If I didn't know better, I'd almost think Elidibus was running damage control on the current situation after the events of 4.0.

I get the feeling Elidibus was not planning on 4.0 going the way it did. Whether that was Garlemald not losing Ala Mhigo and Doma or Shinryu getting to wreck more havoc (and manage to temper people?) or Zenos being a bigger obstacle to the WoL. Something happened (or didn't happen) that caused him to get more involved then he ever has been before and caused him to view the Warrior of Light as someone who needs to be taken out. I can easily see that as the Warrior of Light or the Eorzean Alliance not acting according to the Ascians' script anymore, and Elidibus trying to get them off the board so to speak.

Of course, it might also have nothing to do with the WoL or the Eorzeans at all. At minimum, the Shadowhunter has found and ousted at least six Ascians from the bodies they were possessing. At maximum, those Ascians are dead and aren't coming back. There's other parties moving against the Ascians then just the WoL now and Elidibus might be trying to prevent the WoL from finding that out. Although by now he's to late to prevent that...

[Theodric]

The Warrior of Light may very well be an obstacle, though the Eorzean Alliance isn't. Lahabrea and his companion told us back in Heavensward that mortal conflict is the key to bringing back Zodiark. Presumably because - as with Primal destruction - it risks ushering in a Calamity. Thus the Ascians want Eorzea and Garlemald to be at each other's throats. They don't care for either and have been shown to back both sides - as shown with Elidibus giving Ilberd the Eyes of Nidhogg. Which, I might add, is precisely the point where Eorzea became the aggressor and made a move on territory occupied by Garlemald. All in the name of liberation...and yet now moves are being made to cause mischief within the inner territories as well, which risks causing that 'chaos' thing that the Ascians adore so much.