Make relics have the same iLVL as the Raid weapons and released at the same time

[Tint]

Welp, this isn't the discussion I wanted to do anyway.

What I want is that the relic weapon doesn't get butchered by the tomestone weapon. I actually don't care how strong the relic is in correlation to the raid weapon.

You have to invest 5 hours, spread over 7 weeks, to get the tomestone weapon.

For getting the 1000 tomes you have to run expert roulette 11 times. To reach the weekly cap of 450 you need 5 experts. Capping stones for 2 weeks and run expert one more time in week 3. This grants you 990 tomes, you will get the last 10 from clearing Alphascape 4 normal.
One expert takes 20 minutes. 11 runs x 20 minutes = 220 minutes.

You have to clear Alphascape 4 normal 7 times. How long does a run take? 10 minutes? So it's 7 runs x 10 minutes = 70 minutes.

220 + 70 = 290. Let's round it to 300 and that is 5 hours.

5 hours of work spread over 7 weeks is like not playing the game at all. That's also less than 2 timers in Eureka.

So why is the relic, wich needs a huge time investment, not actually better than a weapon wich is handed out almost for free? Okay, the relic has 3 materia slots more, but that's still underwhelming when you compare the amount of work to get these two weapons.

Tomestone gear in general is just too good and makes other gear options irrelevant. Why get the gear from normal mode raid and 24 man raids, or the relic gear, when you can just wait for weekly reset and buy the better tomestone stuff? Yeah casual players should not fall behind, I get it.

But I actually want to play this game, not just running 5 experts and wait for reset, and I am not a raider. Why is there no real option for people like me, wich doesn't feel like a huge waste of time because tomestone gear outclasses everything except the savage raid gear anyway? (and even that is arguably since it will have the same item level in the end)
Where is my carrot on a stick? :O

[Dualgunner]

Okay, the relic has 3 materia slots more, but that's still underwhelming when you compare the amount of work to get these two weapons.

And Ultimate weapons only have one extra materia slot over the raid weapon. I guess it's the same idea; the weapon is a bragging rights (This is my reward for my hard work) weapon moreso than a useful one.

[Lastelli]

So why is the relic, wich needs a huge time investment, not actually better than a weapon wich is handed out almost for free? Okay, the relic has 3 materia slots more, but that's still underwhelming when you compare the amount of work to get these two weapons.

Because tomestones have a weekly cap. You can get your eureka weapon in a few days if you're crazy enough. Also, the tomestone weapon competes with the other tomestone gear because, again, tomestones are limited. Personally, I wouldn't touch the tomestone weapon with the end of a stick. It would just delay my BiS and the possibility to try other jobs in savage.

And as already said by Whiskey and Cassandra, gear is not very relevant for your numbers if you don't know your job's rotation and how to adapt to different encounters. I've seen ilvl 380+ players in expert roulettes being outdpsed by healers and tanks. Gear won't help those players.

[Nezerius]

You can get your eureka weapon in a few days if you're crazy enough.

Apparently, the players going into Pagos on release just weren't crazy enough, seeing as they didn't get their weapons "in a few days".

And as already said by Whiskey and Cassandra, gear is not very relevant for your numbers if you don't know your job's rotation and how to adapt to different encounters. I've seen ilvl 380+ players in expert roulettes being outdpsed by healers and tanks. Gear won't help those players.

This can go both ways. If gear is only relevant to a player's numbers once they know their rotation, then what's the big deal of non-raiding players spending more time overall to obtain gear that's very close to raid gear?
You'd always have the relevancy of numbers and knowledge to set the raiders apart from the rest, after all!

[HyoMinPark]

This can go both ways. If gear is only relevant to a player's numbers once they know their rotation, then what's the big deal of non-raiding players spending more time overall to obtain gear that's very close to raid gear?
You'd always have the relevancy of numbers and knowledge to set the raiders apart from the rest, after all!

I think Lastelli’s point is made towards the posters in this thread (and others) that claim they “want better gear for better damage”—if your damage is bad with low gear because you don’t know a basic opener or proper rotation, getting better gear is not going to improve your damage. Your foundation isn’t solid enough to hold up the walls you’re trying to build on it. That, and a lot of people seem to think it’s necessary to have “the best gear” when the most they do is run dungeons and maybe the occasional 8-man or 24-man. They can have it, but they don’t need to act like it’s necessary to the content they’re doing—it’s only necessary for those who participate in the 1% (speedruns, optimization runs, and Ultimate).

[Tint]

I think Lastelli’s point is made towards the posters in this thread (and others) that claim they “want better gear for better damage”—if your damage is bad with low gear because you don’t know a basic opener or proper rotation, getting better gear is not going to improve your damage. Your foundation isn’t solid enough to hold up the walls you’re trying to build on it. That, and a lot of people seem to think it’s necessary to have “the best gear” when the most they do is run dungeons and maybe the occasional 8-man or 24-man. They can have it, but they don’t need to act like it’s necessary to the content they’re doing—it’s only necessary for those who participate in the 1% (speedruns, optimization runs, and Ultimate).

Again I am fine with the raidgear is BiS, but the relic should be a step above of the tomeweapon. Having the best gear (or better gear) of course is not necessary to clear the easier content, but it is necessary to justify the long relic grind (wich gets longer and longer with every added step).

And more damage is more damage. I never said that people who don't know their rotation can deal high dps with better gear, what I wanted to point out is that when you care about people with low dps, why only care about their rotation and not their gear? Both will increase their dps.
I mean: You apparently don't need a proper rotaion to clear the content, so why care about improving?

[HyoMinPark]

And more damage is more damage. I never said that people who don't know their rotation can deal high dps with better gear, what I wanted to point out is that when you care about people with low dps, why only care about their rotation and not their gear? Both will increase their dps.

If a BLM in full i400 gear only does an ice mage rotation or something even worse than that, it doesn’t matter what their gear is. A BLM in i380 gear doing a proper rotation will do more damage—and not just a couple hundred... they will do a couple thousand more—which will make them more valuable to a party despite their lesser gear. Because the party isn’t having to carry them and work harder to make up the difference in damage.

Same for tanks and healers—who cares if one tank is BiS if they can’t maintain aggro or rotate their cooldowns? Why take them over a tank in lesser gear who does rotate cooldowns and properly manage aggro? Who cares if the healer is in BiS but they can’t keep the party alive? Why take them over a healer in crafted gear that can both outheal and outDPS the other healer?


Better gear will only make a difference if you have a good, solid rotation. You can only make the most out of your new, better gear if you understand the basics of your job. As I said, you need a good foundation before you start building a house on it. A house without a good foundation will be shaky at best, and fall more often than not.

You look at both factors; you don’t just ignore one for the other, and that goes both ways—high gear/low damage and low gear/high damage. You look at all of the factors, and I never said that you didn’t or shouldn’t. You don’t just ignore low damage because “they have high item level gear”, just like you don’t ignore another player with high damage because “they are in the crafted stuff”. First thing I look at when I see a player doing low damage is what their gear is. And I usually see them in current gear; sometimes even better gear than myself. Yet, my numbers are higher. Further analysis usually shows errors in their rotation, or a lack of active time in battle (not necessarily deaths, but things like waiting several seconds between GCDs to use skills, so that their CPM is lower and they aren’t keeping their GCD rolling while on a boss).

My all-time favorite instance of showing that better gear doesn’t matter if you don’t know the basics was during a Shinryu Ex farm group. A MCH in i330/i340 gear was berating a MNK in the i320 crafted for being the reason that we were seeing second Aerial Blast (lol) because he was in “crap gear”. Yet, the MCH was being outDPS’d by both tanks with zero deaths and the MNK was top DPS. So, who was the real problem there? Certainly not the MNK in i320.

I mean: You apparently don't need a proper rotaion to clear the content, so why care about improving?

That doesn’t make it okay to force other players to carry you. And just because the content doesn’t require even 50% doesn’t mean that you should play at 25%. Because the people that play at 25% may eventually wander into content where you do need more than even 50%. And they are still play at 25%. And they think that’s still okay when it really isn’t, and then get angry at people for removing them from the party (there was a thread someone made here about being “wrongfully kicked” from a V2S group for low damage where they did less than the tank in the party).

This is also the exact mindset that a lot of people that want carries have. And it’s a poor mindset to have; so hopefully they don’t have a problem when people see they clearly don’t care about being a burden to their group and remove them to find someone who will have a bit of respect for their teammates.

[Tint]

This is also the exact mindset that a lot of people that want carries have. And it’s a poor mindset to have; so hopefully they don’t have a problem when people see they clearly don’t care about being a burden to their group and remove them to find someone who will have a bit of respect for their teammates.

Yeah, and I wanted to point out that "you don't need the best gear to clear the content" is the same mindset as "you don't need a proper rotation to clear the content."

Shouldn't we try to improve both? Rotation AND gear?

[Lumis_Arvalo]

Apparently, the players going into Pagos on release just weren't crazy enough, seeing as they didn't get their weapons "in a few days".!

I know a number of people who had their first elemental weapon within a week of Pagos dropping. I'll agree that's not the "norm", but let's not act like these people don't exist.

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.

I suggest that the final requirement in obtaining the fully upgraded Relic for it to be BiS (on top of the crazy grinding) should be having to trade in the highest ilvl raid weapon, amongst other things. That way you wont be able to skip the toughest end game material.

So you want a weapon that was designed to be for casual players to grind out over time to be gated behind items that come from raid content, and thus be for raiders? That's... really dumb. That's not what the relic is supposed to be in this game. If that's how it was in FFXI and you enjoyed that, then go back to FFXI. That system sounds terrible for a game like this.

[whiskeybravo]

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.

I think it's hard to say whether it takes more time or effort for relic grinds. I mean, I'm not a "hardcore" raider, it took my group like 6 weeks, raiding 9ish hours per week, to finally down 11s and move on to M+F. Average groups are still on 11s after nearly 8 weeks. So you got 50ish hours worth of time in one, put 50 hours in the other and it's probably about the same results, and of course there's hardcore types on both sides that will get it done much faster. Overall I'd lean towards more time and effort being required for raid rewards, there's too many factors outside the content itself that have no equivalent in a relic grind. From building and maintaining a raid group to dealing with schedule conflicts, egos, strategies, performance, etc etc