Moderate Latency (150~) + Impacts of Double Weaving

[SleepyNeko]

After looking around the forums for DPS that is good with a high latency, these are the common responses:

SAM/BLM - Least affected
MNK - Moderately affected
RDM/DRG - Abit more moderately affected
NIN/BRD - Don't even try.
SMN/MCH - Didn't see any responses so no idea.

I'm getting into the DPS role and have raided with BRD/NIN/MNK/SAM. With 150 ping I cannot fit 2 ogcds most of the time without clipping into the next gcd.

So my questions are:
How much damage am I losing if I don't strictly follow the optimal openers and just try to spread everything out evenly (single weave everything), over the entire fight.

Second, are dragoons really that dependent on double weaving? I've looked at the CPM for DRG and it is fairly low for most fights.

Should I just play whatever class I want and single weave everything or change to a slower class like DRG/BLM? (All my friends are playing SAM already).

[Kitfox]

Don't play MCH with high ping. It will be absolutely hopeless until SE fixes the class. Not only is double weaving important, Rapid Fire will make weaving ogcds even worse.

[Zerathor]

You'll be losing a good ammount if you can't double weave. Both from cds drifting out of burst windows, and just delaying your damage output by a good margin.

Also smn is a lot of double weaving in the opener, but it doesn't have as many later on. But still a decent ammount of double weaves.

Blm may work out for you well, as the high latency will increase your ability to slide cast a bit, as long as you don't have bad packet loss as well. Bad packet loss will nuke your rotation on every job.

[Fannah]

Not only is double weaving important, Rapid Fire will make weaving ogcds even worse.

You're just supposed to use one oGCD between each GCD during Wildfire/Overheat, I don't see any problem with it. It's really dynamic and fun if used properly. You have to use Reassemble at the right moment when you have to use Clean Shot according to your proc during the Wildfire/Overheat window to make it worth because you can only use one oGCD and not 2. You have to take your decision quickly, that's a part of why it's fun.

[Kitfox]

You're just supposed to use one oGCD between each GCD during Wildfire/Overheat, I don't see any problem with it. It's really dynamic and fun if used properly. You have to use Reassemble at the right moment when you have to use Clean Shot according to your proc during the Wildfire/Overheat window to make it worth because you can only use one oGCD and not 2. You have to take your decision quickly, that's a part of why it's fun.

No. This is what you're supposed to do: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

And just because you're using 1 ogcd between gcds with Rapid Fire doesn't mean it's easier because of this:
- 1.5 gcd + ogcd: 1.5 - 0.75 - 0.75 = 0s room for latency
- 2.5 gcd + 2x ogcd: 2.5 - 0.75 - 2 x 0.75 = 0.25s room for latency

If double weaving is a problem (and you do need to double weave in OHWF), Rapid Fire weaves are an even bigger problem.

[lulunami]

You want to double weave on SMN in the opener for buff alignment later on in the fight (i.e. you want to Tri-Disaster and Deathflare with personal buffs and party buffs expiring at certain points in the rotation). Double weaving becomes less important later on, but it is still more optimal to do so if possible.

MCH is the worst job to play optimally with bad ping. I have 30-40 ms server latency and I notice immediately when I get a lag spike during Wildfire. Rapid Fire results in lots of GCD clipping if you start lagging.

You generally want to avoid high APM jobs that require double weaving such as BRD/NIN if you have very high latency. Jobs with less oGCDs and slower GCDs are more manageable. BLM can be okay with higher ping, but you may get weird MP tick or Astral Fire/Umbral Ice transition issues.

[Fannah]

No. This is what you're supposed to do: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

And just because you're using 1 ogcd between gcds with Rapid Fire doesn't mean it's easier because of this:
- 1.5 gcd + ogcd: 1.5 - 0.75 - 0.75 = 0s room for latency
- 2.5 gcd + 2x ogcd: 2.5 - 0.75 - 2 x 0.75 = 0.25s room for latency

If double weaving is a problem (and you do need to double weave in OHWF), Rapid Fire weaves are an even bigger problem.

Where did you get that one action is animation locked at 0.75sec?
The this is what i'm supposed to do leads me to a gigantic guide book, so please be more specific. "0.75" reasearch leads me to nothing, and Rapid Fire only leads me to "but since this is a shortened rotation it doesn’t actually result in further dps loss unless you have very low skill speed and lag a lot during Rapid Fire."
And laging or not doesn't change that you will still hit quicker than without Rapid Fire, so it's still a gain even with high ping. And too high ping is a loss anyway whatever the class you're playing.

[Kitfox]

The this is what i'm supposed to do leads me to a gigantic guide book, so please be more specific.

I linked a guide to proper rotations because you suggested that MCH only does single weaves during OHWF window, this is incorrect. You do 2x double weaves and 2-3x single weaves depending if you have Overload/Heartbreak ready. You also don't time your Reassemble on your proc, you time your procs on your Reassemble, which is always used at the same ogcd slot with the same timing. Because you "did not see any problem with it", I wanted to point out that there most definitely is a problem if you can't double weave, because you absolutely must, and that even the single weaves pose a problem most other classes don't have to worry about.

I think having the proper understanding of the class and the rotations is important before making assumptions such as yours, because they're exactly the reason why SE is unable to see the problems in their own class design and why the job is still broken after well over a year of updates to other classes.

Where did you get that one action is animation locked at 0.75sec?

Average animation lock for most abilities is around 0.70-0.75s in good latency conditions and it's the average most commonly used in theory crafting. It has been tested time and again, and you can gather evidence about it yourself by going through video footage. I had the small equations there to back up my argument that the single weaves during Rapid Fire are worse than double weaves, because your argument seemed to rely on the point that single weaves would somehow be easier to do than double weaves, this is incorrect under Rapid Fire.

...and Rapid Fire only leads me to "but since this is a shortened rotation it doesn’t actually result in further dps loss unless you have very low skill speed and lag a lot during Rapid Fire."

This quote has nothing to do with Rapid Fire and more to do with the gcd uptime lost due to FT+WF double weave, which is more like a triple weave when accounting for 2 ticks of FT.

And too high ping is a loss anyway whatever the class you're playing.

Obviously, but MCH doesn't even require a lot of lag to become unplayable, even the smallest amount has a very large effect compared to most other classes. There's also no way to adjust the rotation to single weaves due to how tight the Wildfire and Overheat windows are, while many other jobs can.

[XiXiQ]

I'd say pick something you like that only uses single oCDs, blm/rdm for example, but still expect to be down 10% on dps even if you're perfect.

[Zerathor]

I'd say pick something you like that only uses single oCDs, blm/rdm for example, but still expect to be down 10% on dps even if you're perfect.

I don't think it'd be 10% bad on blm. I can't think of any points in standard opener or rotation having double weaves.