What exactly IS a White Mage?

[Gemina]

Because this is all in reference to the comment on PvP last page, where lilies ARE definitely more of WHM's thing due to the nature of PvP requiring more hardcasted direct heals with much greater return on the cooldown reduction, which also sees more use again due to the less scripted nature of PvP. This doesn't change that we all know how lackluster it is in PvE, but it is definitely a bigger factor in PvP.

Fair enough.

Everything else..

A very well thought out response on rebuttal. Nearly every word was a passing thought of my own when I arrived at the conclusion I have with WHM. I haven't turned a deaf ear to the many suggestions people have made to improve WHM, and have even made some of my own. But at the end of the day, what will be done to prevent the leapfrogging? Is it even possible the way this game is set up? And how do we shift a philosophy so engrained in our current playerbase?

I can say that I am glad I am not faced with these challenges. It has got to be tough. But it should be clear by now that my problem is not with WHM; it's with AST. I know it's not going to change, and giving WHM what it needs I can only foresee one of the other healers (likely AST) just being knocked right back down. When I play WHM though, it just feels right. I think it is a wonderfully designed job that unfortunately falls behind our other healers.

I can definitely understand if someone has chosen WHM to be their main, and/or don't have the other healers available for whatever reason. It's unfair for me to say that if WHM isn't cutting it, then bring a healer who does. I also don't desire for other healers to be pruned. But I will refuse any notion that WHM is broken. If the devs can get past the challenges, I definitely look forward to the days to come.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

. Fact of the matter is it can be used to clear any content in this game just fine.

I'm so tired of this argument. "It can clear content so obviously everything is fine!".
No one's arguing that WHM is some broken healer that can't fufill it's duty. We all know it can clear content, that doesn't mean it should be ignored or denied unique abilities and skills.
WHM is lacking in almost every aspect and could definitely use some fine-tuning and unique raid abilities.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

I will bring up something, whm gets its first shield at level 66. I ran the Siren Song Sea with mentor roulette today and guess what, the tank on the first boss was waiting on me to pop it before pulling. As this is a level 62 dungeon, no Bension available. This is about like asking a drk to use his CD's, which he/she doesn't have yet other than Rampart until level 46 with Shadow Wall (which has happened to me too). Yes, lillies are broken but whm until level 66 has no pre-pull spells like it did pre-SB with stoneskin and stoneskin 2. Also, with the loss of stoneskin 2 whm doesn't have any party damage mitigation which of course hurts in 4 person extreme's like Rathalos which makes it a liability there, especially after its heal spells no longer work (which of course effects all healers).

Of course ast in a 4 person extreme battle can be in the wrong sect and lose shields, but that is easy to correct. whm doesn't have that utility to it that ast has.

I've just been watching this thread and waiting for someone to bring this up, but it hadn't so I thought I would.

[Gemina]

Your logic fascinates me, in a way - a similar way to an MC Escher painting.

Anyways. So there are many, many suggestions for how to help out WHM. Total reworks of lillies that community members have contributed detailed writeups about. Adding some utility (which WHMs in FF titles normally have, it's only FF14 where they don't). And many other things. But, ok, you don't like that.

So why not borrow from DPS balancing and just scale up WHM damage? Still plays exactly the same, doesn't lose any of its... "identity of having no identity" that you think it has.

But now it brings something to the table. It won't be meta without the buffs, but at least it can contribute to a faster overall kill time, help bring down DPS-check adds, and so on. And it doesn't require a lot of development work. Tweak some numbers and it's good. Vs the current situation where WHM-running teams are at a flat out disadvantage and will have a harder time dealing with DPS-check phases/adds/etc, as well as the overall enrage time.

--

But really, personally, I just want WHM to be good at something. I'd take any suggestion that makes WHM an asset instead of a liability.

Well, I suppose that is a plus lol. I don't think I've ever been compared to a painting.

I'm aware my logic is twisted, but it doesn't necessarily make it flawed. I recognize and acknowledge the issues, but I also want to try and bring a fresh perspective into the limelight. I am perhaps too selfish as a WHM, and it was an oversight on my part that other WHM mains out there might want a more engaging playstyle that does not belong to SCH or AST.

The weekend is here. So good sir, instead of agreeing to disagree, I vote to agree to get along and continue to strive to make the community, and not just WHM a better place.

[Gemina]

I'm so tired of this argument. "It can clear content so obviously everything is fine!".
No one's arguing that WHM is some broken healer that can't fufill it's duty. We all know it can clear content, that doesn't mean it should be ignored or denied unique abilities and skills.
WHM is lacking in almost every aspect and could definitely use some fine-tuning and unique raid abilities.

And I am not arguing that WHM is not clearly lagging behind the other healers. Again though, give this to WHM without having it knock down one of the other healers. That IS the issue I am presenting. NOT that WHM is fine, don't do anything. Read more carefully please.

[Ghishlain]

But at the end of the day, what will be done to prevent the leapfrogging? Is it even possible the way this game is set up? And how do we shift a philosophy so engrained in our current playerbase?

Unfortunately, there isn't a way to prevent the leap frogging. When the number of jobs exceeds the number of available slots, there will always be a meta composition that is mathematically and statistically the best composition in the game.

Any adjustment with cause that leap frog event to occur, no matter how minute the change is. I don't mind this, as I feel every job should have it's time in the lime light if at all possible.

I think the only thing we can do from a player base is attempt to change the culture of meta and how its perceived.

There are a lot of leaders who latch onto meta without understanding what makes the composition meta and thus lack the coordination and skills necessary to achieve the pinnacle of a meta composition. Despite that, these leaders can make decisions that make non-meta jobs feel unwelcomed by enforcing meta compositions and thus build animosity between the player base.

The other thing I'd say that needs to change is the perceived culture that any job that is non-meta is garbage. It's a rather ignorant opinion and, again, leads to animosity.

It's not an easy change to do, but I do think a shift in perception and knowledge can at least lead to more educated discussions regarding what changes would be necessary for job balance. We'll never have perfect balance, but we can at least work towards getting that balance as close as possible.

[Risvertasashi]

Unfortunately, there isn't a way to prevent the leap frogging. When the number of jobs exceeds the number of available slots, there will always be a meta composition that is mathematically and statistically the best composition in the game.

Any adjustment with cause that leap frog event to occur, no matter how minute the change is. I don't mind this, as I feel every job should have it's time in the lime light if at all possible.

Which is why I'd be happy with a niche, and one reason why I'm fond of the "buff WHM DPS" suggestion. It wouldn't change the meta. But it would give WHM a niche.

[Ghishlain]

Which is why I'd be happy with a niche, and one reason why I'm fond of the "buff WHM DPS" suggestion. It wouldn't change the meta. But it would give WHM a niche.

I was doing a calculation earlier.

If we took the WHM 99th percentile Omega Final log (3,473.5 DPS) and bumped up the potency of Stone IV from 250 to 280; Aero II tick from 50 to 60; Aero III tick from 40 to 45; we'd actually bump that WHM's DPS to 3,889.9. This value would exceed both SCH and AST at the same 99th percentile.

I dunno how much people would be on board for this, but I would definitely love this as a start.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

And I am not arguing that WHM is not clearly lagging behind the other healers. Again though, give this to WHM without having it knock down one of the other healers. That IS the issue I am presenting. NOT that WHM is fine, don't do anything. Read more carefully please.

I mean this is just unavoidable no matter what. What we should be striving for is for them to close this gap, not leave it as is. Because what's going to happen if we just do nothing is, come 5.0, WHM is going to get treatment it should have had in 4.0 and be behind on everyone else again.

There are ways to bump up WHM without making them AST levels of imbalanced. A personal DPS boost would be a nice start.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And I am not arguing that WHM is not clearly lagging behind the other healers. Again though, give this to WHM without having it knock down one of the other healers. That IS the issue I am presenting. NOT that WHM is fine, don't do anything. Read more carefully please.

This is the inevitability that comes with balancing jobs. Monk is reaching the point it may overtake Ninja; Summoner finally pushed Machinist out last tier. The goal should be that each job is relatively close enough that people are more willing to accept its presence. Currently, White Mage's singular advantage over Astro and Scholar is Thin Air. You mention earlier White Mage is supposedly the raw healer, but Astro can match its throughput, and brings mobility thanks to lower recast times. Therefore, White Mage does need a niche of its own otherwise it simply has no relevance in end game content. No offense, you're only 66. Job balance means nothing in leveling dungeons or FATEs. White Mage mains don't appreciate taking their job of choice to make level only to be asked to switch to Astro. And that demand has become so ubiquitous even JP is taking Astro over White Mage nowadays because of the aforementioned mobility.

You can scream viability until you're blue in the face. Many people at end game level couldn't care less if a job is viable. They want it to be competitive. Dark Knight could clear everything, even Ultimate, yet it lagged behind Warrior and Paladin in terms of party composition because it simply lacked the tools of its counterparts. Samurai has been "viable" since release yet became a meme due to how low its overall rDPS was relative to Dragoon and Ninja who dwarfed it until the series of buffs finally came. And this isn't inherently a "meta" issue. Monks typically don't struggle to find groups despite being decidedly less popular than Ninja. Why? Because they're competitive. If it weren't for Piercing, you may start to see a more even spread amongst melee DPS. You aren't going to see that with healers.

So what can be done with White Mage?

- Increase its DPS
- Give it the same lowered recast Astro received
- Give it utility

The goal isn't necessarily to make White Mage better, but to have people accept it into their statics. White Mage/Astro is widely considered a joke comp because Scholar is hilariously good at everything and White Mage offers nothing Astro do better. This shouldn't be the case.