What exactly IS a White Mage?

[Risvertasashi]

-snip-

Why are you bringing up old, ilvl-sync'd content?

I'm talking about alphascape. Where gear ilvls are still low (though we're more than a month in now so yeah that is changing fast). But with AST solo healing ultimate I don't exactly think they're out in the cold on that either.

And whereas your ''best'' argument is: ''It's all about FFlogs''; why are you so afraid to show them, then?

Because people like you would only use it for ad hominem attacks. If you use aggregate statistics to make an argument, you don't need anyone's personal logs.

WHMs kit is still a better triage kit then AST because:
1) More OGCDs to use (Tetra, Bene, Divine Benison, Asylum, Assize, Plenary Indulgence vs Earthly Star, Essential Dignity, Collective Unconsciousness)
2) Better MP kit (Thin Air, Assize vs Lightspeed)
3) GCD heals that augment the WHM oGCD kit

In a vacuum, the WHM kit is better than AST for triage healing.

Still not sure I'd agree. Half those oGCDs you list aren't good for triaging. Bene and Tetra can make good emergency heals, but one is on a very long CD and even the shorter one is still longer than ED. And... lightspeed is really quite good if you need to throw out a lot of spotheals - instant benefic 2s at reduced cost, on the move if need be.

As for MP, no, still disagree. You have to look at the whole picture. But the best evidence is, instead of arguing over specific abilities and MP costs and what not - FF logs.

AST is doing just fine - more than fine really - keeping up very high levels of DPS and keeping everyone healed in the current tier even at low ilvls. This was not true before the AST MP buffs, but it sure is now. (I could also tell you that, running AST, the MP management felt as free as end-of-HW, but I think it's better to look at what hundreds~thousands of players are accomplishing on AST right now than to talk about personal impressions).

And then of course there is SCH. 3 instant oGCD heals every 45s, 6 in 30s if you hit a panic button. Of course SCHs would typically rather use those for other things, but... if you need to triage, they're there. WHM isn't shining here.

--

Ultimately we're circling round, though. The point is still that WHM does not have more healing than other healers. They're all about equal, ultimately, and you can say "But look at this ability and that ability!" yet you have to ignore increasing amounts of performance data to claim otherwise.

And this is a problem when the others bring greater total contributions to the party.

[Ghishlain]

Still not sure I'd agree. Half those oGCDs you list aren't good for triaging. Bene and Tetra can make good emergency heals, but one is on a very long CD and even the shorter one is still longer than ED. And... lightspeed is really quite good if you need to throw out a lot of spotheals - instant benefic 2s at reduced cost, on the move if need be.

As for MP, no, still disagree. You have to look at the whole picture. But the best evidence is, instead of arguing over specific abilities and MP costs and what not - FF logs.

AST is doing just fine - more than fine really - keeping up very high levels of DPS and keeping everyone healed in the current tier even at low ilvls. This was not true before the AST MP buffs, but it sure is now. (I could also tell you that, running AST, the MP management felt as free as end-of-HW, but I think it's better to look at what hundreds~thousands of players are accomplishing on AST right now than to talk about personal impressions).

And then of course there is SCH. 3 instant oGCD heals every 45s, 6 in 30s if you hit a panic button. Of course SCHs would typically rather use those for other things, but... if you need to triage, they're there. WHM isn't shining here.

--

Ultimately we're circling round, though. The point is still that WHM does not have more healing than other healers. They're all about equal, ultimately, and you can say "But look at this ability and that ability!" yet you have to ignore increasing amounts of performance data to claim otherwise.

And this is a problem when the others bring greater total contributions to the party.

I will agree to disagree as well. It's clear that you'll just be focusing on Savage and find any argument outside of that scope irrelevant.

I'm really wondering why plenary indulgence needs a timer on it at all. It should be something you can rely on when you need it. I don't see it being such a broken thing, saving a medica cast or two per fight with Plenary. I actually wouldn't mind the spell if it functioned like this.

I like this idea a lot. Maybe reduce the potency of PI to 100, capping at 300 at three stacks would balance out the permanent stacks.

[Risvertasashi]

I will agree to disagree as well. It's clear that you'll just be focusing on Savage and find any argument outside of that scope irrelevant.

Fair enough, I suppose. No one cares which healer I pick for The Burn.

Re: PI. While it's not the most stellar skill, I don't really want to buffs to healing. The game is already overloaded with powerful heals.

[Ceallach]

What exactly IS a White Mage?

A pious, druidic healer reactive in style with no real buffs for the party outside the healing over time from Regen and Medica II. This is in contrast to the proactive scholars who shield and heal, and the gambling astrologians that are otherwise jacks-of-all-trades with some MP issues and timed actions like Earthly Star.

[Grimoire-M]

WHM's identity across the Final Fantasy series as a whole includes buffing the party on top of healing. Primarily defensive buffs too. Protect/Shell, the NulElement line in games that cared about those weaknesses, Float/Haste/Vanish/Blink before they became Time Magic, and more recently offensive buffs such as Bravery and Faith, if they're not tied to a green mage or another support class like Bard. They also had access to a number of crowd control spells but those are by no means WHM exclusive. I don't feel it would be a bad thing to give them defensive buffs in general for that reason, considering Protect is already this must-cast cross role spell that barely gives a nod to that. I could see WHM getting an ability that actually is comparable to Fey Covenant in power and uptime, maybe with a slightly lower cooldown, or affects all damage instead of just magic. Or hell make it a temporary mini-AoE thrill of battle and let WHMs actually take advantage of their raw healing in order to fill those bars higher than normal.

They don't need mitigation as much as a Lily rework and dps, but it would still fit within their identity to have it.

[Lastelli]

A pious, druidic healer reactive in style with no real buffs for the party outside the healing over time from Regen and Medica II. This is in contrast to the proactive scholars who shield and heal, and the gambling astrologians that are otherwise jacks-of-all-trades with some MP issues and timed actions like Earthly Star.

Unfortunately, AST currently is a master-of-all-trades with some small mp issues that become negligible with a ranged dps in your party and good play (correct use of lightspeed, extended lucid dreaming)

[Exiled_Tonberry]

AST currently is a master-of-all-trades with some small mp issues

Pretty much. They're able to do everything, just as good as everyone, with minor inconveniences such as Earthly Star taking 10s and having buffs tied to RNG.

Some people probably consider this good enough of a drawback, but to the skilled player this doesn't mean a thing.

[Ceallach]

Unfortunately, AST currently is a master-of-all-trades with some small mp issues that become negligible with a ranged dps in your party and good play (correct use of lightspeed, extended lucid dreaming)

The fact AST has to depend on Refresh from a BRD or MCH makes it a worse job by design, in my opinion. It's hardly a "master" when it can't spread shields, summon a faerie, or instantly fully heal someone.

[MoroMurasaki]

I will agree to disagree as well. It's clear that you'll just be focusing on Savage and find any argument outside of that scope irrelevant.

To be fair there is no way to balance around non-Savage content and have that balance still work within Savage.

If they balanced around WHM being the best dungeon healer... well... actually that kind of seems to be what they've done ;-;

[Ghishlain]

To be fair there is no way to balance around non-Savage content and have that balance still work within Savage.

If they balanced around WHM being the best dungeon healer... well... actually that kind of seems to be what they've done ;-;

I'd argue that they balanced WHM around Alphascape (Normal) and 24-mans more than savage. These types of content have a lower skill floor and mechanics that won't instantly wipe you out, so healers will need to do much more patch work to keep a raid going versus Savage where the skill levels are higher and it's less about healing wounds and more about picking people up off the ground (or wiping) when mechanics are derped. It definitely doesn't help WHM's position in Savage raiding though as we can't utilize those strengths.

I'm in agreement that balancing around four mans is a pretty terrible balancing approach but there is content that exists between EX Roulette and Savage that should be considered when looking at total tool kits. As Erakir mentioned earlier (and I am in agreement with), there should be some consideration for high end HoH / PotD as well but the reward structure for that content would need to be improved if we are to seriously look into balancing jobs around that content as well.

I will admit, it's aggravating when many posters seems to misconstrued my comments that I am only talk about EX Roulette and content below that level when I clearly stated we should be considering all aspects of 8-mans with an emphasis on Savage, but make sure Savage is not the only focus. This comment isn't directed to you (Moro), just a general observation for posters who are wanting to pick my posts apart by straw manning "EX Roulette content".