What exactly IS a White Mage?

[Dualgunner]

Is WHM's absurd aggro worth mentioning at all? SCH and AST both circumvent this pretty handily, but a WHM needs to have the party go on eggshells sometimes regarding its aggro.

Made some parts of UwU very interesting, and even the start of Final Omega was funky because of it.

[HyperiusUltima]

Is WHM's absurd aggro worth mentioning at all? SCH and AST both circumvent this pretty handily, but a WHM needs to have the party go on eggshells sometimes regarding its aggro.

Made some parts of UwU very interesting, and even the start of Final Omega was funky because of it.

It is. WHM has the worst of it due to how they can literally sit there and spam their big heals til' the Aggro shines Red. Though, I think with proper healing management between both healers it works itself out. The only thing I wonder about is what exactly are the aggro multipliers on their heals if they're causing that to happen even normally in UwU and O12S? Is it potential overheal that's adding to the aggro from WHM? Or is it simply just too high multipliers causing a giant aggro spike?

[Ghishlain]

It is. WHM has the worst of it due to how they can literally sit there and spam their big heals til' the Aggro shines Red. Though, I think with proper healing management between both healers it works itself out. The only thing I wonder about is what exactly are the aggro multipliers on their heals if they're causing that to happen even normally in UwU and O12S? Is it potential overheal that's adding to the aggro from WHM? Or is it simply just too high multipliers causing a giant aggro spike?

It's because the whm kit has no native aggro dump. AST Sects provide a native enmity reduction passive (which should be removed, honestly - but that's another topic for another thread). Also, ASTs largest burst heal is pet enmity so it doesn't add to the ASTs (also an oversight I find).

SCHs healing is split between pet and master, so thats their passive. SCHs heals should be coming from their fairy with spot heals coming from the SCH as needed.

The WHM aggro situation leads to fun situations, like me tanking middy earlier today for o10n. Lol. Funny enough I didn't mind since better me than the poor DPS who can't defend themselves.

[Risvertasashi]

No healer in the game can put a raid back together like WHM can. That's their strength.

I'm going to disagree with this on a rather simple basis.

As we're seeing from FFLogs, AST is seeing quite a bit of use even at the earliest points of this raid tier, ie, the prog phase - and maintaining exceptionally high performance. It is not the "farm/optimized party only" healer it was closer to being at the beginning of stormblood.

(Really if a group's having a lot of trouble, having a BRD+RDM makes a bigger difference than healer choice)

Is WHM's absurd aggro worth mentioning at all? SCH and AST both circumvent this pretty handily, but a WHM needs to have the party go on eggshells sometimes regarding its aggro.

Made some parts of UwU very interesting, and even the start of Final Omega was funky because of it.

Well... WHM has it bad for aggro, yeah (starkest difference when I ran AST through raids this week, didn't have to worry about ripping from the tank at all), but I wouldn't call it the defining flaw.

WHM's key flaw is that it no longer has any strengths compared to other healers. What white mage really needs is an advantage/strength that no other healer provides. (Or, if that's too much to ask for, at least make the raid DPS buffs role actions to make the healers equal/minmaxers uncaring)

Fixing WHM's aggro issues would be nice - probably one of the nicest things that could be done for white mage, even - but would not fix this fundamental flaw. The thread creator called this white mage's identity. When WHM is simply equivalent (MP, healing output) or worse (buffs, utility, etc) than all other healers in any area you care to talk about, then... WHM lacks identity/unique strengths, etc

So what's the beginner-friendly DPS/tank?

Everything else is allowed to be useful at a higher level and got reworked to attempt it, but we just discard WHM?

Yeah, the dev team doesn't do the whole "Well this job is easier so it should be worse!" balancing philosophy. Even RDM got some buffs recently, and SE's stated ideal is to balance utility vs DPS, not "easiness". RDM gets a ton of utility, so its numbers are less (but SE still buffed it a bit to keep it from falling too far behind).

It is. WHM has the worst of it due to how they can literally sit there and spam their big heals til' the Aggro shines Red. Though, I think with proper healing management between both healers it works itself out. The only thing I wonder about is what exactly are the aggro multipliers on their heals if they're causing that to happen even normally in UwU and O12S? Is it potential overheal that's adding to the aggro from WHM? Or is it simply just too high multipliers causing a giant aggro spike?

It's a combination of factors. First, tanks are using DPS stance and avoiding their aggro combo as much as possible, so there is not much enmity lead (this is optimal play).

Both AST and SCH defer some aggro generation to a pet (well, SCH defers a lot). AST's stance bonus further reduces all enmity generated.

Let's use o10s as a simple example, because ahk morn occurs early in the fight:
SCH will indom here, which is a bit of an aggro spike. But with the fairy focusing on tank heals - and using whispering dawn from the fairy if more party healing is needed - that's about it. Splitting between the SCH and fairy, it doesn't amount to much
AST will earthly star here, generating 0 enmity. If more healing is still needed, they might use CU, which generates a fair bit, but then the stance mitigates it.
WHM will probably cure 3 here. 1 cure 3 is enough to put you right on the tank's heels, and if you need to bene the upcoming tankbuster, that can push you over and force a lucid. If you need to use 2 cure 3s, or combine cure 3 with medica 2, you are assuredly going to rip hate off the more aggressive tanks.

But if your tank stays in defiance and spams butcher's block, I guess you'd be ok...?

Now that's a relatively easy fight. But in very high end content - last raid fight, ultimates, etc - you do need that tank DPS. And the healing tends to never really slow down. Hence, WHM's enmity problems. SCH splits it with the pet, AST defers some to a pet and gets a 100% uptime bonus.

[HyperiusUltima]

Snip

Finally someone gets it. Cookie for you.

Even so, with how AST and SCH are, how exactly would we put WHM back in a proper place? Given that AST already steps all over WHM's kit due to being able to fill in perfectly with carbon copies of Medica II, Cure II, Cure, Regen, and Medica, what would WHM need to stand out?

In my opinion, just as everyone else wants, we need to rework the Lily system to where it's actually beneficial for WHM to use instead of just ignore and use it as it comes. Another thing to consider is completely breaking WHM to the point where it sticks out like a sore thumb. Remember how AST was completely broken in 3.4 in Heavensward because they were trying to find the right tuning for its buffs? They need to do the same thing to figure out how to fix WHM from the inside out considering we already have two unique powerhouses(one that simply sits on top of its Lalafellian throne, and another which has been buffed to the stars). Why not make a third and actually work it all out from there to find where the powercreep lies?

Either way, the buffs 4.4 brought had to have been a bit of an oversight in terms of how AST contributed, despite us finally not having to wait on server tick for Ground DoTs/HoTs.

[Risvertasashi]

In my opinion, just as everyone else wants, we need to rework the Lily system to where it's actually beneficial for WHM to use instead of just ignore and use it as it comes. Another thing to consider is completely breaking WHM to the point where it sticks out like a sore thumb. Remember how AST was completely broken in 3.4 in Heavensward because they were trying to find the right tuning for its buffs? They need to do the same thing to figure out how to fix WHM from the inside out considering we already have two unique powerhouses(one that simply sits on top of its Lalafellian throne, and another which has been buffed to the stars). Why not make a third and actually work it all out from there to find where the powercreep lies?

The sort of bandaid fix that was suggested in another thread: Give WHM the highest (instead of lowest) personal DPS, by a fair margin. It would be a fairly unique strength, the others would still have their raidbuffs, but WHM could at least contribute to the overall kill time decently.

At least until SE can rip out the awful lilly system and replace it with something useful. Maybe even keep that aspect, if they're so determined to avoid giving WHM any raid buffs and keep healing output/MP sustain/etc equal between the healers.

[HyperiusUltima]

The sort of bandaid fix that was suggested in another thread: Give WHM the highest (instead of lowest) personal DPS, by a fair margin. It would be a fairly unique strength, the others would still have their raidbuffs, but WHM could at least contribute to the overall kill time decently.

At least until SE can rip out the awful lilly system and replace it with something useful. Maybe even keep that aspect, if they're so determined to avoid giving WHM any raid buffs and keep healing output/MP sustain/etc equal between the healers.

That would be good, but it'd have to be like a 40+ potency increase to make a difference for Stone IV, and probably another 10-20 Potency for Aero II/III. AST can have a 300 potency Lord ready to pop from RNG, so I'm wondering if there's much else to be done? Even so, we'd run into the same problem as SAM and BLM have: Selfish DPS and NOW a Healer that is Selfish in terms of DPS and is about equal on healing with the other two healers.

If I had to say anything about Stormblood, it's mainly felt like the Buff Meta like it was in Heavensward. If they're going to keep Lilies, we'd best get some use out of the darn Lilies come next Expansion through some type of offensive or supportive raid-wide ability that isn't a joke.

[Ghishlain]

I'm going to disagree with this on a rather simple basis.

As we're seeing from FFLogs, AST is seeing quite a bit of use even at the earliest points of this raid tier, ie, the prog phase - and maintaining exceptionally high performance. It is not the "farm/optimized party only" healer it was closer to being at the beginning of stormblood.

(Really if a group's having a lot of trouble, having a BRD+RDM makes a bigger difference than healer choice)

I'm not even talking about that level of content - I'm talking about content like Alphascape (normal) and Lighthouse. Savage PuGing deaths lead to irreversible snowballs or just outright wipes death - that's it intent and it's designed to kick your ass, though WHM does have the ability to stymie the bleeding better than the other healers.

So, yes, I know this is content that many people deem irrelevant but it's still something the developers have to consider and thus the players have to consider regarding the state and identity of WHM.

It's funny because using the same numbers on FFLogs but looking at every job in the game as a whole, you can see which jobs are really suffering in the non-meta standing and WHM, despite being non-meta, is definitely not suffering in terms of participation. Which just means that's a nail in the coffin with regards seeing any sensible changes to WHM prior to expansion, sadly.

Another thing to consider is completely breaking WHM to the point where it sticks out like a sore thumb. Remember how AST was completely broken in 3.4 in Heavensward because they were trying to find the right tuning for its buffs? They need to do the same thing to figure out how to fix WHM from the inside out considering we already have two unique powerhouses(one that simply sits on top of its Lalafellian throne, and another which has been buffed to the stars). Why not make a third and actually work it all out from there to find where the powercreep lies?

At this point, I think S-E will need to make WHM so overpowered that it'll remove any form of negative stigma that WHM has accumulated since 3.4. Not make WHM an equal to the current healers, surpass them in almost every way.

I hate that it's come to that point though.

[HyperiusUltima]

That's the problem when developers powercreep themselves into a corner, Ghish. Hopefully the devs will read the thread and understand what's going on, because this is something I'm rather adamant about in terms of change outside of where SAM and BLM need to be understood. As far as class fantasy goes, BLM and SAM are perfectly fine from what I can see; it's just that WHM's class fantasy is...well, confusing at best. I don't even know what to make of the Healer anymore considering the fact that their lore is kinda bungled up from Heavensward's little 'tainted' adventure to Lv 60.

[Risvertasashi]

So, yes, I know this is content that many people deem irrelevant but it's still something the developers have to consider and thus the players have to consider regarding the state and identity of WHM.

This exact argument was used at the end of heavensward, too.

But, no, WHM still doesn't have more capability than the other healers here.

SCH would be even stronger, as the fairy can heal while you hardcast a rez (and a lot of SCH's mp consumption is from M2, which needs not be used in this kind of situation). AST... lightspeed is far from bad, as the shorter cast times mean you have to worry less about mechanics interrupting cases where you need to hardcast rez.

--

But to address this on a more fundamental level. By this logic, there needs not have been even one balance change in Stormblood. DRK never needed help, nor SAM, nor BLM, etc. They could all complete low end content just fine, and even be very powerful in it.

It's funny because using the same numbers on FFLogs but looking at every job in the game as a whole, you can see which jobs are really suffering in the non-meta standing and WHM, despite being non-meta, is definitely not suffering in terms of participation. Which just means that's a nail in the coffin with regards seeing any sensible changes to WHM prior to expansion, sadly.

Sadly, this is true. As the raiding healer population is low generally, WHMs can get by being stubborn about their choices and many groups will begrudgingly take them anyways.