FFXIV: Endgame as it is now and what it once was, how do you feel?

[Reap00]

I agree 100% with you OP. FFlogs has had a very deterimental effect on the game and its community. These kids get in groups where they have their numbers padded then point fingers at people that pug the same content. Its absurd and has no place whatsoever in this game. To make matters worse they are now turning ACT into deadly boss mods. They can't even get the content down the way it was intended anymore. They need a mod to call out where to go and when. I would love to see the devs step in and stop this trend but its pretty apparent they aren't going to do anything about it.

[Kirsten_Rev]

Chiming in as a more casual player here: while I don't raid, I have noticed that PUGs are less and less pleasant these days, and people seem to be a lot quicker to anger (myself included).

While I don't have much exposure to FFLogs, it seems reasonable that it's played a role. I think that SE's bland content cycle has caused a lot of this as well, though. I don't know about everyone else, but back in 2.x, whether I was getting my feet wet with Coil or pushing through HM / EX Primals, it felt like an adventure. I wanted to push myself, because the content was new and exciting.

Nowadays? I tried the first few EX Primals of 4.x, and cleared through NM Deltascape, but I stopped a long time ago, because they no longer feel interesting to me. To the extent I run group content at all after the first week of its availability, it has a good deal in common with running errands. I don't go into Ridorana for the sake of Ridorana (like I did with Labyrinth of the Ancients); I go in because I want certain items or Tomestones. This greatly changes my personal outlook and patience when I encounter people who are messing up. In this context, they aren't fellow players seeking to conquer a new challenge - they're barriers to me getting my errands done. I get annoyed the same way I do at traffic jams.

Again, I don't know how much this all translates to higher-tier content. But it really seems to me that the utter predictability of content, the exceedingly boring itemization, has altered how I - and others - view instanced content, and not for the better.

[van_arn]

Chiming in as a more casual player here: while I don't raid, I have noticed that PUGs are less and less pleasant these days, and people seem to be a lot quicker to anger (myself included).

While I don't have much exposure to FFLogs, it seems reasonable that it's played a role. I think that SE's bland content cycle has caused a lot of this as well, though. I don't know about everyone else, but back in 2.x, whether I was getting my feet wet with Coil or pushing through HM / EX Primals, it felt like an adventure. I wanted to push myself, because the content was new and exciting.

Nowadays? I tried the first few EX Primals of 4.x, and cleared through NM Deltascape, but I stopped a long time ago, because they no longer feel interesting to me. To the extent I run group content at all after the first week of its availability, it has a good deal in common with running errands. I don't go into Ridorana for the sake of Ridorana (like I did with Labyrinth of the Ancients); I go in because I want certain items or Tomestones. This greatly changes my personal outlook and patience when I encounter people who are messing up. In this context, they aren't fellow players seeking to conquer a new challenge - they're barriers to me getting my errands done. I get annoyed the same way I do at traffic jams.

Again, I don't know how much this all translates to higher-tier content. But it really seems to me that the utter predictability of content, the exceedingly boring itemization, has altered how I - and others - view instanced content, and not for the better.

You raise a good point. At launch, the only "chore" people had was the weekly tomestone cap, running FC-mates through Titan (and laughing at them when they fall off), and perhaps leves for crafting.

From 2.1 until today, the following chores opened in addition:
Roulettes
Beastmen dailies
24-man raids for charity drops/upgrades weekly; all current raids 3/week late expansion.
Wondrous Tails
Fashion (I guess it counts?)
Normal-mode raid drops, one per floor per week for the current tier.
Hunts/Maps, upon notification.

Surely I've missed more of these "chores" but this is enough to add on to this point.

This creates an Ubisoft-like shopping list where you just tick things off for various rewards weekly/daily, and feel like you're not playing "optimally" if you don't keep up with it all. Square's also a bit guilty of turning this checklist mentality against player wellbeing to wallpaper over their unmaintained content, such as making some of the most poorly-designed content in the game take their own hour-long daily roulette that some find difficult to pass up not because it's fun in itself, but because it can be afkd through for good rewards.

The fact that none of what I've posted "must" be done doesn't make this checklist go away. You're forced to weigh opportunity cost against running something just because you feel like it. And often, players will pick the path of least resistance-- meaning, someone that would've enjoyed running [whatever] instead ends up watching netflix while afking for rewards.

Then, on top of all of this you can consider Savage/Extremes. Unless you abandon the entire checklist and only do Savage/Extremes. Opportunity cost again.

[Theodric]

As far as Balmung is concerned, I feel like it has taken a drastic turn for the worse. Back in the days of ARR the server had a lot more people who were interested in the game as a whole rather than only being interested in role-play and little else.

I'm the sort of player who tries to dabble in everything on offer to various degrees. When Balmung was considered to be the place to be it was far easier to meet people on the server to team up with for a variety of in-game activities.

These days? It is a struggle. I rarely see people from Balmung in Eureka or PvP. I post on this board frequently and spot players who used to play on Balmung but have since transferred elsewhere. It's a little disheartening.

There are, however, some solid gems I stick around for. So it isn't all bad.

[Gin_Gray]

FFlog if anything made optimizing and improving weekly easier. I raid to press buttons, get loot and improve every week. This hasn’t change for me since 2.0 and my group has always been of like mind. Clearing a tier at min ilv still gives me that rush of accomplishment as it always has. I think the problem is finding a group that suits your style and conflicting goals of what you want from your raiding experience.

[RoyalBeef]

That's the problem when max DPS is the most effective answer to everything. No matter what role you play, in the end you will always be judged by how much DPS you bring to the raid. People play like selfish pricks, ignoring mechanics and not using utility bc they cannot live with knowing they "wasted" one GCD. Anyone remember fights in Everquestwhere utility was king, and you had multiple parties who's only job it was to keep adds CC'ed while the main raid was doing their thing? And fights took so long Necros were more cherished for their ability to feed mana to healers than for their DPS, bc no matter, there was no way to make it through the fights without running out of mana? And 5-6 healers doing nothing else than running their heal chains nonstop bc that was the only way to even keep the tank alive since the mobs didn't hit like pussies? Allof those roles were needed, because pure DPS couldn't save you from wiping. That was real teamwork and having a fulfilling role other than being a DPS number.

[TaiyoShikasu]

Before FFLogs there was a convoluted spreadsheet only the most insane felt like updating with any regularity. FFLogs just took something that already existed and made it less tedious to work with.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I feel that unless you're recruiting for a static of some kind, then looking up someone in fflogs before you play with them is a tad excessive.

It depends on the perspective. I tend to glance at their logs to form an expectation. Based on the consistency of said logs, I determine how much patience I'll ultimately have with their performance. If we go in and they're dying to silly things or they're getting out-dps'd by a tank, I'll consider replacing them for another player. I'm also mindful to dig into their logs a bit. Did they have bad healers, which led to deaths the DPS or tanks had no control over? Did the BRD/MCH have a DRG? Stuff like that. You can analyse virtually everything with FFlogs. What it boils down for a lot of people is how much time they want to potentially waste on someone who doesn't appear very good.

It's no different than a job interview. Your resume may not accurately represent your skills, but a potential employer has nothing else to go on but your word. Now you may think it silly to liken a video game to a job, however that evaluation is entirely subjective. Some people want a quick and efficient clear. If they elect to make a PF, they are within their right to have whatsoever standards they fancy. Others couldn't care less and simply want to have fun.

The issue often derives from mixing these two mindsets. Which is why it's ultimately better parties disband quickly or people are rotated out/leave otherwise it's unlikely to work out. And in that scenario, no one benefits.

[Ilan]

sorry for my english

i totally agree with you. Raiding in ARR times was better because only the progression was important

In my opinion FF logs have destroy the game ( it s my opinion)

Before FF logs, people only wanted raiding to destoy their boss, now people only want to destroy their dic...

How did fflogs destroy the game? Its just an homepage which shows you, in detail, how your fight went which is a good thing if people would only know how to use it properly.

The only thing that has a bad influence on the game are people who don't know how to use given tools, like a parser and fflogs, properly and the people who constantly keep complaining about these tools.

(Yes its just another "FFlogs is evil = Parsers are evil = raiders, who use it, are evil" thread.)

[Yamimarik]

I feel like a lot of people aren't really understanding what I'm trying to say, and on both sides. I personally do not (and I said this in the OP) have an issue with parsers the tool. I think it's an invaluable tool that can help you and your teammates progress steadily and efficiently in endgame content. I personally do not have access to one since I play on PS4 and am at the mercy of others. I don't have an issue with the analytical side of FFlogs either, nor with the site as a whole in all honesty.

My issue stems from the community and how they use it as a world wide competition to gauge everyone under the sun in a very tightly closed box that only a few people can fit into. If you are not in the consistent "orange" or "purple" ranges so many people have and want nothing to do with you. (Also as I stated in the OP, this applies to my personal experiences only and of my friends.) I've actually seen an individual who quit their static simply b/c they got a bad parse, the person who was parsing uploaded it and they left the static. Before they left they kept trying to sabotage the run so they could start the fight over. Even though the team cleared the fight easily w/o any incident other then the guy purposefully trying to wipe them. It wasn't enough for the person in question... this is my personal issue with FFLogs and the mentality of "PvE competition" that comes with it.

(Yes its just another "FFlogs is evil = Parsers are evil = raiders, who use it, are evil" thread.)

Nice try, but if you actually read my OP, that is the FURTHEST from the truth...