FFXIV: Endgame as it is now and what it once was, how do you feel?

[Sylvina]

FFlogs can be a useful tool for self improvement but the fact is people use it to point at other peoples numbers and jump to conclusions and then go and insult those players or view them as inferior.

[Sylvina]

As someone who does do savage (although still getting into it) I'm perfectly happy with dyeable versions of normal raid gear and would be happier still if the normal was dyeable too and the stats were the only thing making the savage gear better. Since gear affects appearance and is used for glamours in this game, the visual customization should not be locked behind savage difficulty.

[van_arn]

FFlogs can be a useful tool for self improvement but the fact is people use it to point at other peoples numbers and jump to conclusions and then go and insult those players or view them as inferior.

Conversely, looking up a paladin and see they cleared Rabinastre only one time with nothing more than the Halone combo tells me they really are an inferior paladin, have no business running any content beyond Brayflox' Longstop, and they have no ground to stand on for an objection.

It is a beautiful ray of sunlight, forcing players into the truth of what they are (or in the case of the paladin, aren't) doing.

[Dirwen]

Conversely, looking up a paladin and seeing they ran Rabinastre with nothing more than the Halone combo tells me they really are an inferior paladin, have no business running any content beyond Brayflox' Longstop, and they have no ground to stand on for an objection.

Does PLD get more than one combo after brayflox? Because I'm leveling DRK and a level away from 50 but don't see much added for the combo. Granted DRK might get more on later levels. Also does DRK get screwed on range enmity attack for pulling?

[van_arn]

Does PLD get more than one combo after brayflox? Because I'm leveling DRK and a level away from 50 but don't see much added for the combo. Granted DRK might get more on later levels. Also does DRK get screwed on range enmity attack for pulling?

Yes. That's why I say someone tanking a 70 24-man as if they're in Brayflox is wrong, deeply inconsiderate, and should be exposed.

And when I say only, I mean only. They weren't using reduction cooldowns either.

This is akin to a DRK staying in grit and only spamming the power slash combo.

[jameseoakes]

Does PLD get more than one combo after brayflox? Because I'm leveling DRK and a level away from 50 but don't see much added for the combo. Granted DRK might get more on later levels. Also does DRK get screwed on range enmity attack for pulling?

PLD doesn't get another combo until Goring blade at 54 so it's Rage of Halone until Sohm Al.

[KarmaCha]

As someone who's raided since T1, I share a lot of the same thoughts as you do, OP, but I also have a different perspective. And I'm going to use this comment to express how I feel the raiding scene has changed, and WHY - particularly because of HOW the community uses FFLogs.

I think a lot of us from the "old days" look fondly on how the raiding community used to be and forget its glaring flaws. FFLogs, on the face of it, is used by the community now as a sort of gate keeping tool. Where someone can judge your entire existence in a few minutes of looking at SELECTIVELY (this is important) uploaded parses. And it feels unfair at times, as your percentiles are weighted against people with better gear / better party compositions / and the fact that some people at the top (most, lets be honest) curate their logs to represent their best performance, not their average performance. I know this from first hand experience being in several statics since FFLogs came out who argue over what should be uploaded vs uploading everything (as most casual raiders do). I liken this to the sort of online voyeur culture that sites like Instagram promote. Depict an enviable life/performance, while intentionally leaving out the bad parts. And in that way, FFLogs is definitely abused by the community and less cunning people are lead to assess their self worth against a culture that has been disingenuous in theirs. In that way, I think FFLogs is destructive and ultimately harmful to the community.

BUT let's not forget that it was similar in ARR and HW, which I think at times were even *more* restrictive than the system we currently have. FFLogs or not. Sure, we didn't have parse runs to increase our own market value, but word of mouth could make or break your reputation, and in the end - keep you from joining a group. And your value was essentially assessed by others' expectations, which were not consistent. I recall many instances where someone's worth was judged by the type of FC they were in, or when they cleared a certain fight, despite our personal limitations. FFLogs bypasses all of this and allows you to present yourself as valuable, disregarding the silly metrics people used to use. Personal bias does not hold up to MATH. In that way, FFLogs is freeing, and gives people better opportunities.

The issue is not FFLogs' pervasive influence in raiding culture, its the fact that people abuse it. Because our values have shifted.

Is it silly that "mid core" groups pulling decent, or "good" numbers at best have the same expectations as world first raiders? Yes, absolutely. But that serves the person seeking a static just as well. If I see a group who *needs* a Ninja, yet I can see that the other members in the group aren't playing their own jobs optimally, I have to ask myself why exactly they think they need Trick Attack. And the most common reason is "To close the DPS window on damage we *should* be able to output ourselves but can't/won't". In that case, the group mindset is regressive and their priorities aren't in the right place. And anyone who understands that will see that group as a "trap". From my view, there are *more* groups who's expectations work against them rather than serve them. As a wise man once said, the vast majority of players need to "get gud" before imposing their expectations on others. The popular exclusion of Samurai from groups of all tiers of skill level REALLY highlight this fact.

Playing your job to its potential is infinitely more important and IMPACTFUL than reaping the benefit of a specific comp if you aren't already doing so. And I think that FACT is completely lost on a huge portion of the player base.

But the reason for all of this? And this reflects your point about players using PVE as a PVP outlet - people want to so badly to be seen as "good", that they will imitate those better than them to their own detriment, and it because a cycle of harm. The obsession with FFLogs, to the point where it is the REASON people raid, is the reason raiding feels different, the reason raiding seemed *better* "back then". FFLogs is the greatest tool for all FFXIV players, but it is easier to use as a weapon, and people are lazy.

That is never going to change by the way. So the answer to this, or to recapturing the "magic" of raiding is to lower your OWN expectations and dismiss this "race" that you are inherently at a disadvantage in unless you are misrepresenting yourself. That isn't to say everyone at the top is doing that, they aren't. But the culture is heavily influenced by lies.

As for incentives to raid, it has gotten better. Mounts are Savage exlusive, so is dyable gear. The challenge is still there, and so is the ilvl / unique weapons. Story being brought into normal mode raids is a good thing. It prevents the casual player base from pressuring the devs to nerf fights so they can experience it (was totally a thing in Coil). And I think the way the raids are set up, from a dev point of view, serves the entire player base is a good, and meaningful way.

Raiding is the most accessible, and enjoyable now as it has ever been. So in that, I have to sort of disagree with you.

TL;DR - FFlogs is good but the community abuses its usefulness to the point that the culture is inherently unfair. But still, raiding is better now than before it existed

[Penthea]

Conversely, looking up a paladin and seeing they ran Rabinastre with nothing more than the Halone combo tells me they really are an inferior paladin, have no business running any content beyond Brayflox' Longstop, and they have no ground to stand on for an objection.

It is a beautiful ray of sunlight, forcing players into the truth of what they are (or in the case of the paladin, aren't) doing.

I feel that unless you're recruiting for a static of some kind, then looking up someone in fflogs before you play with them is a tad excessive.

Everyone has bad logs at some point whether it's due to lag, having a bad day, someone in the team hindering your performance or you just didn't realise at the time that you were doing something wrong. I'd hate to be judged on logs in which I had lag. They make me look awful and nothing about the logs will tell the viewer I had lag. They will just show I had poor or too little spell usage and died a lot.

Never mind how judging solely through logs can actually harm people who have improved since their last logs. If the logs aren't super recent then you can't really rule out the possibility that they have since improved. It would suck to be constantly refused based on out-dated data. Sure you could make your own logs to show your improvement...unless you're a ps4 player. Then you're stuck or have to ask someone else to log.

Also who the hell logs alliance raids? o.O People actually do that? Given how incredibly messy they can be I feel that the combat data from them can be too volatile to be worth going through.

[Jojoya]

Sounds like the problem is 2 different types of player are trying to do content together and that's not going to work out well.

If FFlogs and a focus on generating bigger numbers bother you, then find people who feel the same way you do and form your groups with them instead of trying to play with those who do use FFlogs and focus on numbers. Not everyone is in a rush to clear content or push out the biggest numbers. Some are fine progressing at a slow pace over the course of a patch cycle as they wait for the next bit of content to be released. It might take a little bit of extra effort to find those players but then it takes the more hardcore players extra effort to get their statics created as well.

[van_arn]

I feel that unless you're recruiting for a static of some kind, then looking up someone in fflogs before you play with them is a tad excessive.

Everyone has bad logs at some point whether it's due to lag, having a bad day, someone in the team hindering your performance or you just didn't realise at the time that you were doing something wrong. I'd hate to be judged on logs in which I had lag. They make me look awful and nothing about the logs will tell the viewer I had lag. They will just show I had poor or too little spell usage and died a lot.

Never mind how judging solely through logs can actually harm people who have improved since their last logs. If the logs aren't super recent then you can't really rule out the possibility that they have since improved. It would suck to be constantly refused based on out-dated data. Sure you could make your own logs to show your improvement...unless you're a ps4 player. Then you're stuck or have to ask someone else to log.

Also who the hell logs alliance raids? o.O People actually do that? Given how incredibly messy they can be I feel that the combat data from them can be too volatile to be worth going through.

The specific instance was someone complaining they got kicked and insulted "for no reason."

For the rest of it, I can only shrug. It is what it is, and it's plainly not going away. Any amount of rose-tinted nostalgia isn't going to change that.

They claim participation is optional, but hiding yourself there really makes it look worse than letting people see the good with the bad.