Which Final Fantasy World Will We Visit Next

[Theodric]

As an aside, here's the text associated with the Mist Dragon's Triple Triad card acquired from the dungeon itself:

'Captured by the Allagan Empire and altered by aetherochemistry, this ghostly dragon was consigned to living out its unnatural life in the vast wastes of the Burn. The glimmer of intelligence faded from its eyes, the creature is driven purely by instinct, and brings its mastery over mist to bear against all who dare to set foot in its domain.'

I'd say it fits into FFXIV rather nicely, personally.

[Nalien]

It fits but it's just sort of there with no greater context when, given the relevance in IV, I'd have expected some. It's like if they put Jenova as a dungeon boss with no greater story implications. A boss like that I just expect to be part of something bigger.

Thinking on it a bit more though, Mist Dragon could also lead up to more XII related Mist references, which again just highlights how often Final Fantasy relies on nostalgia; XIIs Mist seemed like a pretty strong throwback to IVs Village of Mist/Summoners. I guess you can also look at it as still a solid IV reference, just from Alphinaud perspective rather than our own (perhaps why it feels so odd). Past the Burn and the Mist Dragon lies an encampment King Baron just wiped out with some Bombs, sorry, ElidiZenos just wiped out with Black Rose.

[ObsidianFire]

Those kind of references are very much what I just expect from XIV. I mean 2.0 basically happened because of Sephiroth using the Black Materia to summon Meteor... Or was it Nael van Darnus using the Lunar Transmitter to summon Dalamud/Bahamut? I forget...

The similarities between Nael and Sephiroth go much further then that. One of the biggest discussions about Sephiroth's motives in FFVII is if Sephiroth wanted to destroy the Planet because he really wanted to or if he wanted to because he had been influenced by Jenova who originally wanted to destroy the planet herself. Nael has the same thing going on. Bahamut might have tempered Nael so she would cause Dalamud to fall, but in Binding Coils he reverses Nael's tempering and it turns out Nael wanted Dalamud to fall without Bahamut's influence in the first place. Like... the only main difference between Sephiroth summoning Meteor and Nael summoning Dalamud is the specifics of how they do so. And that's not even counting how Meteor had Aerith to lessen it's impact while Dalamud had Louisoix/Phoenix in the same roll...

So yeah... why exactly are we complaining about references to previous FF games five years after FFXIV launched? The game has literally been unsubtlly doing this since year one. At this point, all that can really be hoped for is for the impact and details of the references to be a tad different. IE: At least Nael never messed with the main character's head to go find, retrieve and give to Nael the one thing she needed to cause Dalamud to fall. And Dalamud has an even worse danger to the Planet lurking in it compared to Meteor; the Aerith parallel character basically gets corrupted by the Jenova parallel character for a while... thank goodness that didn't happen in FFVII...

[Nalien]

I think the issue is more with the quality of the references, rather than the fact that they're relied on so heavily, at least IMO.

Personally I find it fun to look for such references so I enjoy it when the developers hide them away and make connections to XIVs lore/etc., but that's why something like Return to Ivalice is a bit jarring. It's very much a nostalgia raid and it just feels lazy compared to the type of nostalgia baiting we're used to. Like I said earlier, I think it was too much too fast, there's just not much you can do with three raids... Crystal Tower is arguably the same, but the subject matter was vastly simpler compared to what we have with Ivalice. "Bad guy at the top of a tower made a deal with the devil" is much simpler than the Ivalice plot, and then you've got the fact that we're spread across a lot with the Ivalice raids. Crystal Tower was just the last areas of III, with the Ivalice raids it seems like they're just trying to cram as much of Ivalice in as possible, we're darting across the world rather than focusing on a specific area. As a result, what we do get feels less developed.

[Alleo]

I want only small hints and callbacks to other FF with the next expansion. Because at least for me it had felt like all those instances where they used too much fanservice, the story itself has suffered a bit and for those that dont know the FF it would be hard to understand whats happening. Thus some nice little fanservice pieces are quite fine.

I mean they say a lot that FF14 has nothing in canon to do with all the other FF (because people speculated that the shards are the FF worlds) but at the same time you take over whole monsters without changing them much, whole zones and names (and even NPCs that only have a bit of a different story ending) and then wonder why people still believe that we share a universe with them all.

So less fanservice and more original stuff because otherwise I do wonder if they are just a bit out of own ideas.

(And maybe less obvious jokes and 4th wall breaking and more jokes that could fit the world)

@ObsidianFire:

For me I have always been a bit skeptic about the amount of fanservice but at least felt that it was feeling more like these parts do fit in FF14 even if they are taken from other games. I could for example understand crystal tower without knowing about the game it came from. But SB was really heavy on fanservice. Both raids are not original and both are mostly just there for fanservice. We do not just have iconic places but also bosses, NPCs and the lore. And that imo is too much. They could have taken Ivalice as a place but put their whole new story in it. Or they could have a new zone and some iconic NPCs from 12. The same with Omega. Here 90% of the bosses dont even fit the world at all and next to some being old stories from Garlemald, they also dont even see it necessary to give them any ground in the lore. So as someone who has only played two FF games, I honestly did not care for these bosses at all.

Thus why I hope they get more original with the coming expansion.

[ObsidianFire]

I mean they say a lot that FF14 has nothing in canon to do with all the other FF (because people speculated that the shards are the FF worlds) but at the same time you take over whole monsters without changing them much, whole zones and names (and even NPCs that only have a bit of a different story ending) and then wonder why people still believe that we share a universe with them all.

The thing is, all FF games do this. A Behemoth is a Behemoth, a Flan is a Flan, a Chimera is a Chimera. The same six summons just keep getting used (Shiva, Titian, Rahmu, Ifrit, Leviathan, Bahamut). We keep having broody heroes getting mind-controlled (Kain or Cloud or Estinean). We keep getting people named Cid who give us airships. And yet none of the games are supposed to be happening in the same universe unless the creators say they are.

For me I have always been a bit skeptic about the amount of fanservice but at least felt that it was feeling more like these parts do fit in FF14 even if they are taken from other games. I could for example understand crystal tower without knowing about the game it came from. But SB was really heavy on fanservice. Both raids are not original and both are mostly just there for fanservice. We do not just have iconic places but also bosses, NPCs and the lore. And that imo is too much.

I have a hard time seeing the difference between the way the Crystal Tower raid was set up and the way the Return to Ivalice raid was set up. And if you take any look at FFIII, you'll find that the Crystal Tower raid follows the story-line of its last dungeon really closely like the Return to Ivalice raid follows it's story-line. I've never played either FFXII or FF Tactics and I have really good idea what is going on the Return to Ivalice raid because I like to go back and look at cut-scenes and re-read the quest dialogue. FFXIV does do a good job explaining what's going on in the Return to Ivalice raid so you don't have to be familiar with the source material for it to make sense.

What is different is that since the Crystal Tower raid series, the Allagans have had a two expansions worth of world-building done about them. The Allagans now feel much more grounded in the world then they did back in 2.0. When the Crystal Tower raid series came out, the main things known about Allag was that they were the ones who had created Dalamud and left a bunch of ruins all over Eorzea that were revealed when the Calamity happpened. Oh, and they really like their tech and weapons and didn't care a lot about scientific ethics. Why the Allagans were that way wouldn't come until the midpoint of the 3.0 expansion (Azys Lla and the Warring Triad) and even 4.0 (Ultima Weapon's impact on them).

They could have taken Ivalice as a place but put their whole new story in it. Or they could have a new zone and some iconic NPCs from 12.

I think it's too early to make this claim about Dalmasca and all the other Ivalice places until we see what the new zones of 5.0 are. The 4.4 and 4.5 patches are about where we will be going next expansion and while all signs point to Ilsabard, Ilsabard itself is huge. I can see them introducing Dalmasca in the 24-man raid series as a way to introduce us to parts of a place we will be going to in 5.0. It kinda reminds me of the treatment Ishgard got in 2.4 and 2.5, but that was in the MSQ, not a raid series. They could very well still put a new story in Dalmasca in a coming expansion. At the very least, we know Matsuno wants to get it out of Garlean oppression...

The same with Omega. Here 90% of the bosses dont even fit the world at all and next to some being old stories from Garlemald, they also dont even see it necessary to give them any ground in the lore.

To be fair, this is even pointed out in-game by the raid itself. Hardly anyone in-game has any idea who the bosses are and Omega all but says it doesn't really matter what you are fighting so long as he gets his combat data. What you are fighting in Omega has no impact on the lore of FFXIV until O11 when we see Omega's version of Midgardsormr.

Again... FFXIV is supposed to be the FF theme park. If it's not obvious to the majority of people who play the game that something isn't a reference (whether that be to one game or a concept from a bunch of games) the dev team doesn't think they're doing their job right. FFXIV is basically the dev team creating a creator-approved self-insert fan-fiction game about other Final Fantasy games. Sometimes it leans more heavily on the self-insert part, sometimes it goes more for the fan-fiction part. SB leaned a lot more on FFXIV being a fan-fiction then on it being a self-insert. Only time will tell if the next expansion goes the other way.

[alphaproto]

I would like to see something in reference to FF2.... say what you will about it, however you can't deny that Emperor Mateus' boss fights were some of the coolest in the whole series. Especially in the dawn of souls versions.
That said though... 5, 12, and Tactics are my top 3 FF games so I can say I'm satisfied. But I also think that something really interesting could be done building off of the lore of FF10.

[Alleo]

The thing is, all FF games do this. A Behemoth is a Behemoth, a Flan is a Flan, a Chimera is a Chimera. The same six summons just keep getting used (Shiva, Titian, Rahmu, Ifrit, Leviathan, Bahamut). We keep having broody heroes getting mind-controlled (Kain or Cloud or Estinean). We keep getting people named Cid who give us airships. And yet none of the games are supposed to be happening in the same universe unless the creators say they are.


To be fair, this is even pointed out in-game by the raid itself. Hardly anyone in-game has any idea who the bosses are and Omega all but says it doesn't really matter what you are fighting so long as he gets his combat data. What you are fighting in Omega has no impact on the lore of FFXIV until O11 when we see Omega's version of Midgardsormr.

Again... FFXIV is supposed to be the FF theme park. If it's not obvious to the majority of people who play the game that something isn't a reference (whether that be to one game or a concept from a bunch of games) the dev team doesn't think they're doing their job right. FFXIV is basically the dev team creating a creator-approved self-insert fan-fiction game about other Final Fantasy games. Sometimes it leans more heavily on the self-insert part, sometimes it goes more for the fan-fiction part. SB leaned a lot more on FFXIV being a fan-fiction then on it being a self-insert. Only time will tell if the next expansion goes the other way.

Yes FF uses certain iconic names and monsters and that would be fine, but those are for most of the time common enemies. No end bosses or anything. I have played FF13 and that game may have had some callbacks but as far as I know never whole zones from other games, including the iconic NPCs. And that is exactly what FF14 has done with SB.

I have read the story behind the crystal tower after my first post and have to correct myself on this a bit. Its not that much different from Ivalice but at least at that time it still felt like it belonged in this much better. It could be that I give the Ivalice raid less a pass because I already know the extent of how much fanservice there is. Maybe even because I care less about the characters in it? Or maybe because we also had void ark as a raid which, as far as I know, is original which felt like it had a better story. (Which is subjective anyway)

Omega: I know that its pointed out ingame and thus I find it even worse. They just wanted to have a tournament arc and put these bosses in there with barely any reason (and towards the end they even forgot about that). The last part of Omega has shown me that they can tell a good story if they want to but thanks to the other parts just being tests with monsters that are just myths, it just felt flat.

Thus both raids are mostly fanservice ones, while in HW it was quite less and yet still did some, which felt much better for me.

In the end they can still do a themepark imo without leaning so heavy on older FF. Let the lore about the game stand on its own while still having certain stereotypes if they want to use them (like how Thordan was probably the evil one because he is a pope) And next to that you could use some enemy models from other games, can use summons and important names too as long as they still have their own spin on it. (The Cid from 13 is really different from 14 for example) You can have some smaller hints in the game where fans of the FF can find them and like it while the rest does not notice that.

It should in a way feel natural.

But of course this is only my personal opinion on this. I am not going to quit the game if the next raids are similiar like the SB ones but I do have to say that it would make it at least less appealing.

[Bright-Flower]

Crystal tower feels more naturally integrated into FF XIV's own lore than Ivalice so far. Ivalice feels more...slapped on, more directly transplanted, but still not as blatant as the first nine Omega bosses were.

[Cilia]

What made the Crystal Tower easy to integrate into Hydaelyn is that, even in the world of III, it's just kind of... there. No backstory, no history, no explanation. It's just there as Xande's stronghold. As such giving it a backstory and history makes it very easy to put in.

The Ivalician locales, on the other hand, have history and backstory. Things happened in Rabanastre, Iselia, and the Pharos at Ridorana. The locations around them are significant (Dalmasca / Ridorana Cataract). All that needs to be adapted and explained as well... which makes it feel like Ivalice is starting to encroach on what should be an original world.

The Omega bosses... I'm still not happy about them, but they are explicitly stated to be fiction made real.