About the Emperor [Major Spoilers for 4.4]

[Alleo]

There are those sides (Optimates and Populares) but it does not mean that both of them have the same power behind them or are equal in a way. It could also be that the popluares only really gained attention because of people that want no further war thus have grown over the last few years. We will only know when we go there.

Because Solus was the creator of the empire and the one that created it for a certain purpose. And that purpose is bad. Thus the empire itself is bad/evil as long as that purpose still stands. It does not matter if some individuals are against it as long as it still exists to do these things. Also you cant rule such a government for long if you dont have the masses behind you, so even if we do look at the individuals a lot seemingly where (and are still) quite behind the empire.

The ascian itself was saying that they created it for chaos yet you suddenly question if they are bad? So killing billions of people is not bad? Enslaving people is not bad? Doing experiments and creating toxic mass mudering weapons is not bad? None of the black ascians have ever shown something that can be count morally good. (And Elidibus only likes to talk about balance but never gives us much anyway) Isnt it quite telling that the actions to create a calamity seems to be destruction on a huge scale? How is that in any way not bad at all? And in that view Solus gave the power, the ideals and more to the garlean people to create something that only exists to force calamities.

If you had a Garlemald that was free from the Ascians and somehow truly believed the primal situation and did not built on lies and a certain view then they still might be morally grey thanks to how they are doing it but now it was nothing but lies.

I am from Germany, I see quite the parallels to my own countries past in them and I would without a doubt say that the old german empire was evil. Yet we also had good people in it. (Its interesting that one rebellion group was called "white rose" while we do have "black rose" as a chemical weapon in the game.) But these individuals did not stop it from doing horrible things to people around the world and in their own country too. And thats the same with Garlemald.

I cant explain it better than that and if you believe that they are not really evil because of some good or morally grey people in it then thats your choice. But others might still see those actions of an government/organisation as evil even with the knowledge that not everyone is like that in the country itself.

--

About Zenos death: I think (but thats just speculation) that he just took over Zenos body because it was a great opportunity to get everything back on track. At that time we have just got Ala Mhigo and Doma back, have created rebellions in other countries and killed the successor of Varis. We did find out that Zenos death would be bad for Varis because a war of succession would break out again which would stop any war with other countries and might weaken the empire enough that even more peaceful factions could win. (The worst thing that could happen in Elidibus eyes) With his body in possession any such fights were stopped and he has a direct hand with Varis and can deal with lots of stuff directly too. This might be the better solution since Zenos was a wild card but seemingly he is not that happy to need to use him either. (This coudld be a lie though) So who knows.

It would be a bit sad if he did plan all of this because that would still just show that even with all his great plannings he would have still failed with them. We are seemingly that annoying to him that he even says that he would kill us. And if we take what Solus says for the truth than he also worries a bit.

[Balipu]

If the populares were not a big group they would've never won the empire attentionm, the fact that they lost the support of the ppl it means that there are 3 groups in Garlemand.
Optimates, Populares and commonfolk, whose support changes depending on their emotions on the subject.
They are important.
Also you are discussing the actions of individuals when speaking of the empire, because you are talking about Solus idea and Nael idea of the empire as a way to condemn the empire, why are you allowed to do that?I already said is not the correct way to represent the empire as a whole. Besides an ascian that was using the empire for evil plans you say? I'm sorry what kind of argument is that? We don't even know exactly if Zodiark is evil nor if Hydaelyn is good. Aren't you presuming much? We are just guessing, what we know is that if they die we all die

@Bright-flower
WIth Elidubus? I'm ready to say that it wasn't a coincidence nor the fact that he gave the eyes to Ilberd leading to the summoning of Shinryu and then to Zenos' death.
If you think about it it was just so strange that just after Zenos' died he was ready to take over the body and reappear in the capital, the timing is just too good and completely in the modus operandi of Elidubus.
I mean in 2 events both the emperor's son and his most closed ally were killed off too good for it to be a mere coincidence

Well he probably knew what Ilberd would do. And he probably knew that the WoL will conquer any threat. Elidibus isn't a particularly interesting villain, but he is a very good planner.

[Cilia]

I have a legitimate question, why ppl have ignored the populares, Reagula, Maxima or that guy that was the governor of Ala Ghiri and the governors that allegedly are treating their subjets with dignity when criticising what I said?

Most other people are talking on a different scale. You're speaking of individuals, or small political factions. Everyone else is talking about the Imperial system, not individuals.

We know individuals and small groups are "good," against the Empire's current system. But those are just small groups, or individuals - systematically, the Garlean Empire is not good. There's no one individual you can blame for it - the Garlean people, as a society, bought the lies "Solus" was selling, creating the Garlean Empire as we know it. "Solus" is ultimately the one to blame, but the Garlean people have some responsibility for buying his lies (regardless of reason) - ultimately the point, though, is that the Garlean Empire is systematically evil.

... even if not everyone in the Empire is. (Which I said in the first place; please don't straw man me, or anyone else.)

[Remedi]

I'm not asking if the ascians are bad or not, they spread chaos that much is true, I'm wondering how exactly the conflict can end well, since if we kill them all, light wins and we die, if they kill us all, darkness wins and we all die yet again.
Someone is not telling the truth completely.
Perhaps the chaos is necessary to the overall balance.
Yet you claim to talk on a different scale while I talk about individuals? No I used individuals to say that you can't talk absolutes because we have no real idea how the empire as a whole is really ruled nor how each provincies fares. Yet you've decided that that it was my point.
If you want to make the world black and white suit yourself, the truth is that very rarely it happens and when it happens there are no good ppl around, if you catch my drift, because they were killed before.
Now Garlemand is not a real place however, so far each nation in FF14 has been written in a grey area for the most part, I don't see why Garlemand should be delegated to the saturday morning cartoon.

However it doesn't matter the lorebook should be coming soonish we can have our answers there and if not 5.0 should give us those answers

[Cilia]

... just because it isn't evocative of Saturday Morning Cartoon villains doesn't mean it's not evil...

... I'm not going to reiterate the terrible things the Empire does and has done, but if you can look at it all and say that it's not evil - as a system - then I don't think anything I can say can persuade, so I will step out if that's the case. Dissenting individuals and groups alone do not change that.

[Remedi]

Then I'm afraid Ul'dah and Limsa are evil too as a system, since one is a plutocratic system of which the naivete of the ruler has nearly costed her life and the balance in Eorzea, the others have caused attritions with the local ppl and asked outside forces to fix the problem for them, but hey when asked to take responsability for their actions oh boy that fell on deaf ears.

BUt do I consider them evil? no They are neutral just like Garlemand, no nation in XIV escapes it, they all have their skeletons in the closets, it's just so happens we are in opposition to garlemand by being on the other side.

[Cilia]

Then I'm afraid Ul'dah and Limsa are evil too as a system, since one is a plutocratic system of which the naivete of the ruler has nearly costed her life and the balance in Eorzea, the others have caused attritions with the local ppl and asked outside forces to fix the problem for them, but hey when asked to take responsability for their actions oh boy that fell on deaf ears.

BUt do I consider them evil? no They are neutral just like Garlemand, no nation in XIV escapes it, they all have their skeletons in the closets, it's just so happens we are in opposition to garlemand by being on the other side.

The same old red herring? I'm afraid I've lost my appetite for fish...

We can discuss the faults of the Eorzean nations, but they are not relevant in context. Especially when they are centuries old. If your only counterargument is "Well, Eorzea's not perfect either! Just look at [X]!" I'm not going to bite because that's a red herring (sp. whataboutery), and were I a betting man (and I assure you I am not) I'd wager a number of others are tired of it as well.

[Remedi]

My counter argument have always be that you have not enough informations to make a decision, you lack the knowledge to judge and you choose to judge an entire population based on one man alone, while deciding that other ppl that have other wiews do not exist because they are meaningless according to you and other ppl.
They are not fyi, this is not how history works btw.
I used that "red herring" to show how meaningless the Solus is evil hence the empire is evil systematically thoery is because that can be applied to anything even on moments in history very close to us.

I've been always saying until now that the empire is neutral because we lack the knowledge of many aspects of it and jumping to conclusion is extremely arrogant.
Yet no the empire must be evil because Solus is evil, because that's the argument.

[Bright-Flower]

My counter argument have always be that you have not enough informations to make a decision, you lack the knowledge to judge and you choose to judge an entire population based on one man alone, while deciding that other ppl that have other wiews do not exist because they are meaningless according to you and other ppl.
They are not fyi, this is not how history works btw.
I used that "red herring" to show how meaningless the Solus is evil hence the empire is evil systematically thoery is because that can be applied to anything even on moments in history very close to us.

I've been always saying until now that the empire is neutral because we lack the knowledge of many aspects of it and jumping to conclusion is extremely arrogant.
Yet no the empire must be evil because Solus is evil, because that's the argument.

I don't think anyone is judging the population. We're judging the SYSTEM.

[Cilia]

I've been always saying until now that the empire is neutral because we lack the knowledge of many aspects of it and jumping to conclusion is extremely arrogant.
Yet no the empire must be evil because Solus is evil, because that's the argument.

That's not my argument at all. I have never said everyone in the Empire is evil - in fact I have gone out of my way, repeatedly, to take a contrary position.

The Empire is evil, as a system, because it permits if not encourages acts that most people would consider evil. (Again, I'm not going to reiterate everything.) Solus doesn't even factor into the equation - he may have set the system up, but if you took him out of the equation altogether the system would still be evil. Again, individuals and factions can dissent, but that doesn't change the system.

My argument has nothing to do with individuals or factions - it has to do with the system.