How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

[Daibunnie]

You'll find that in the below quote from your previous post you did exactly that. Perhaps this isn't what you meant, but this is how it appears.

No of course you will not catch every single thing, especially in savage as sometimes your attention is demanded so much that you can't keep watching every combat detail that is presented to you. I even said parsers make it easier to access this information. I was merely correcting you when you said the only reason people know that someone did something wrong is because they could see it in a parser, and I was stating examples of how you can see poor performance without one.

Not sure what your point is or what you're "correcting". Regardless, only the people that were in that instance knows what the pld did. Everyone else can only look at the log and judge what happened, assuming there isn't any video of it. Same situation with the whm, it's difficult to make an accurate critique of what went wrong but the overuse of cure 1 and almost no usage of cure 2 shows that the whm spent most of their time healing in small amounts.

I completely agree that parsers are an easy solution to get more indepth combat information. While a lot can be spotted from personal observational skills and experience, a lot of what players do wrong is sometimes too subtle to see in the heat of battle or you simply haven't the time to look. But this doesn't change that you can spot quite a lot on your own. Very often if someone is really bad at the game it will be obvious without a parser.

Are you talking about randoms from df or a party attempting savage? Other than specific situations like someone failing a mechanic or the party keeps hitting enrage, most players won't notice what every individual is doing during any savage content because they are expecting everyone to somewhat know what they're doing instead of having to keep watch.

[Penthea]

Not sure what your point is or what you're "correcting".

The part where you said "The only reason why we even know they did this is because of the parser." when you were stating some types of bad performance that could easily be spotted without a parser.

Regardless, only the people that were in that instance knows what the pld did. Everyone else can only look at the log and judge what happened, assuming there isn't any video of it. Same situation with the whm, it's difficult to make an accurate critique of what went wrong but the overuse of cure 1 and almost no usage of cure 2 shows that the whm spent most of their time healing in small amounts.

Not sure why you're saying it's difficult to say what went wrong when you said the paladin did shield lob spam, and the whm spammed cure 1. Shield lob has a pretty distinctive animation. You only need to look at the party ui to not only see the cure 1 spam but also the most likely very poor state of party hp.

Are you talking about randoms from df or a party attempting savage? Other than specific situations like someone failing a mechanic or the party keeps hitting enrage, most players won't notice what every individual is doing during any savage content because they are expecting everyone to somewhat know what they're doing instead of having to keep watch.

I'm talking in general. As a healer I'm always looking at the party ui so I can spot a lot of things pretty quickly such lack of buffs, lack of or poorly timed defensive cds, poor or incorrect choice in hardcasts, etc. The tanks in my fc can spot bad tanks super fast just by watching their skill animations. You might find it hard to believe but you can actually see visual signs of people not understanding their class without a parser.

I always pay attention to what my co-healer is doing as well, especially in pugs because some really don't know what they're doing. Maybe I'm weird for this but I'd rather try to carry a less skilled healer and try to get a kill, than waste time wiping because I didn't bother to adjust to the situation by ignoring what the party ui can tell me about them. And yes this does include savage in the rare times when we need to pug a healer.

Personally I feel parsers truly shine when people are trying to get the most out of their class or team. The results of small changes in stat weights, openers, alignment of party buffs, etc, can be incredibly difficult and often near-impossible to track adequately without a parser or fflogs. You can to some degree see changes with your own eyes but without a parser you can't see if a particular use of skills worked better on that pull because it is better or because the players were very lucky with crits and dh. To get the real truth from this you need something like a parser or fflogs.

[Daibunnie]

The part where you said "The only reason why we even know they did this is because of the parser." when you were stating some types of bad performance that could easily be spotted without a parser.


Not sure why you're saying it's difficult to say what went wrong when you said the paladin did shield lob spam, and the whm spammed cure 1. Shield lob has a pretty distinctive animation. You only need to look at the party ui to not only see the cure 1 spam but also the most likely very poor state of party hp.

Both of those examples were gotten from someone posting the logs of those individuals. The pld spamming shield lob was gotten from another persons ranting which matched up with what the log displayed. And unless you're actually in that instance with that player, yes, it is difficult to judge what happened just by someone's story.

[Penthea]

Both of those examples were gotten from someone posting the logs of those individuals. The pld spamming shield lob was gotten from another persons ranting which matched up with what the log displayed. And unless you're actually in that instance with that player, yes, it is difficult to judge what happened just by someone's story.

Well that's my point...if you're in the instance you are in the position to witness the shield lob spam. I have come across plds that do this and I didn't need a parser to tell me about it. I simply saw it and proceeded to eyeroll

I am not saying you can spot all signs of bad performance with observational skills. I did say in a previous post that some mistakes are too subtle to catch or that you maybe don't have the time to glance at what others are doing. I'm just trying to dispel this myth that you need a parser to spot anything that is wrong with how someone is using their class.

I don't consider using the party ui or being familiar with spell animations to be able to spot bad players to be extraordinary. Honestly thought that would be common, especially among healers, but apparently it's not. Personal observational skills as well as class knowledge are just more tools, in addition to parsers, to access a situation. I mean the game gives us all these visual effects to tell us what is happening...why not use them if we can?

[Daibunnie]

Well that's my point...if you're in the instance you are in the position to witness the shield lob spam. I have come across plds that do this and I didn't need a parser to tell me about it. I simply saw it and proceeded to eyeroll

I am not saying you can spot all signs of bad performance with observational skills. I did say in a previous post that some mistakes are too subtle to catch or that you maybe don't have the time to glance at what others are doing. I'm just trying to dispel this myth that you need a parser to spot anything that is wrong with how someone is using their class.

I don't consider using the party ui or being familiar with spell animations to be able to spot bad players to be extraordinary. Honestly thought that would be common, especially among healers, but apparently it's not. Personal observational skills as well as class knowledge are just more tools, in addition to parsers, to access a situation. I mean the game gives us all these visual effects to tell us what is happening...why not use them if we can?

Except you're missing the entire point. You can't just suddenly see what animations and effects are being displayed if you're not actually in that instance. You can't see what nonsense rotation someone is using unless you actually want to risk wasting 30 minutes of everyone else's time and letting them join or just look at a previous log of theirs and see all the info there.

Not even sure why you want to bring up "observational skills" when the entire point is to weed out the casual players that don't know what they're doing before they can sabotage anyone's clear/farm party and in some cases, even a practice party. The other players should not have to babysit you on the basics of the game especially at savage content. You don't know how to tank properly? Then you should not be trying to attempt endgame with a tank class. Don't know how to use your entire kit as a healer? Don't be a healer at endgame. Don't know what a stack marker is? You should not even be trying to attempt savage content.

All this nonsense about watching special effects and monitoring them is ridiculous at that point of the game. They should be kicked before any of that even occurs because it ruins the attempt of 7 other players who actually put in the time to learn what to do beforehand.

This is where a lot of parser toxicity begins. Many people just glance at the parser and use the numbers presented as if they're the only defining factor of a person's performance. Often they don't look at ilvl or if the gear doesn't have ideal stat weights. Being the lowest dps doesn't mean you're the worst player. You could even be the best player if the numbers you're producing for the gear you have are amazing.

Most pf parties have a minimum ilvl set so no, gear won't be making that big of a difference as opposed to actual performance. A dps dealing only 4k dps as opposed to another dps of the same class and gear dealing 7k, shows that dps is doing something wrong, and people will check your gear to see if you have proper gear and materia or if you're just not doing that well.

The problem with parsers is that too many people use a mere glance to judge the potentially more complex situation of their fellow players. They can make people lazy, and therefore often inaccurate, when it comes to judging others and/or themselves.

Because believe it or not, most people don't want to spend almost an hour of their time to gather people on pf, only to find that someone doesn't have optimal gear, doesn't know their rotation, or doesn't even know the fight and have to abandon because of that very reason.

[Penthea]

Except you're missing the entire point. You can't just suddenly see what animations and effects are being displayed if you're not actually in that instance. You can't see what nonsense rotation someone is using unless you actually want to risk wasting 30 minutes of everyone else's time and letting them join or just look at a previous log of theirs and see all the info there.

It turns out we're having two different conversations then. I'm talking about what a person can see in combat. You're talking about trying to find out a player's skill without getting into combat.

Not even sure why you want to bring up "observational skills" when the entire point is to weed out the casual players that don't know what they're doing before they can sabotage anyone's clear/farm party and in some cases, even a practice party.

So what do you do if you look up a person and there are no logs recorded of their performance? There's always a first time to be logged. Never mind how people can change main class, play a different character, or even take breaks from the game and it may have been several tiers since they last played.

The other players should not have to babysit you on the basics of the game especially at savage content. You don't know how to tank properly? Then you should not be trying to attempt endgame with a tank class. Don't know how to use your entire kit as a healer? Don't be a healer at endgame. Don't know what a stack marker is? You should not even be trying to attempt savage content.

I think you're forgetting that some people don't realise that they are bad, or they don't care. Parsers won't magically make bad players stop trying to do top end content. They just make it easier to spot them.

All this nonsense about watching special effects and monitoring them is ridiculous at that point of the game. They should be kicked before any of that even occurs because it ruins the attempt of 7 other players who actually put in the time to learn what to do beforehand.

Again for various reasons there may not be logs available for you to view for everyone. What do you when this happens? Refuse to take them on because you can't be sure if they're going to force you to babysit?

And I'm sorry if you think being observant in combat is nonsense as I find it to be immensely useful.

[jameseoakes]

I think you're forgetting that some people don't realise that they are bad, or they don't care. Parsers won't magically make bad players stop trying to do top end content. They just make it easier to spot them.

I think that is the main point.

[Daibunnie]

It turns out we're having two different conversations then. I'm talking about what a person can see in combat. You're talking about trying to find out a player's skill without getting into combat.



So what do you do if you look up a person and there are no logs recorded of their performance? There's always a first time to be logged. Never mind how people can change main class, play a different character, or even take breaks from the game and it may have been several tiers since they last played.

An official parser would be recording their dungeons/raids up to savage. The current parser that people use includes what class they played and the date they attempted/clear.

Again for various reasons there may not be logs available for you to view for everyone. What do you when this happens? Refuse to take them on because you can't be sure if they're going to force you to babysit?

And I'm sorry if you think being observant in combat is nonsense as I find it to be immensely useful.

Practice parties do exist. If someone without any logs tries to join a clear party, they can easily get kicked. And yes, having to observe everything each party member is doing during a savage raid is nonsense especially when several players have specific animations turned off.