The coming Garlean invasion

[Cilia]

It's linked to the Eureka quest chain. It happens very early on - during the unlock quest for Anemos. I also firmly disagree with the idea that Eorzea as a whole cannot be blamed for what individual companies are doing, especially when at least one of them has immense control over Ul'dah, one of the founding nations of the Eorzean Alliance.

I wouldn't call it a red herring. It's a part of the bigger picture - the Warrior of Light's immense power is being exploited for the sake of greedy opportunists and the expense of a foreign nation that has done absolutely nothing to harm Eorzea.

I'm actually surprised it isn't receiving more condemnation around these parts...though I suppose I should temper my expectations given that there is often immense bias at play when it comes to Eorzea's sins.

How Rowena and Lolorito (through Hancock) run their companies is not the responsibility of all Eorzea, and blaming the entire region for a couple of known corrupt business people is not fair. Furthermore the act itself isn't attempting to dodge Hingan tariffs (or smuggle goods into Hingashi), but to set up another port so they can trade more freely in the region. There's nothing illegal or shady about what they're doing, beyond that it reduces the Hingan government's revenue... and if they manage to set up that port on Eureka and Hingashi loses government revenue as a result, well, that's on them for having such high tariffs the Eorzeans don't want to do business there.

It is a red herring. The topic of discussion is a looming conflict with the Garlean Empire, not how a couple of Eorzean companies are attempting to get around Hingan tariffs in the greater Othardian region.

[Theodric]

How Rowena and Lolorito (through Hancock) run their companies is not the responsibility of all Eorzea, and blaming the entire region for a couple of known corrupt business people is not fair. Furthermore the act itself isn't attempting to dodge Hingan tariffs (or smuggle goods into Hingashi), but to set up another port so they can trade more freely in the region. There's nothing illegal or shady about what they're doing, beyond that it reduces the Hingan government's revenue... and if they manage to set up that port on Eureka and Hingashi loses government revenue as a result, well, that's on them for having such high tariffs the Eorzeans don't want to do business there.

It is a red herring. The topic of discussion is a looming conflict with the Garlean Empire, not how a couple of Eorzean companies are attempting to get around Hingan tariffs in the greater Othardian region.

As I pointed out in another thread, if the exact same scenario was playing out and it was Eorzea on the receiving end then Eorzea would very likely be crying foul. Imperialistic tendencies are imperialistic tendencies. Garlemald needs to work on how it operates on the world stage, yet so too does Eorzea. One can criticise both, after all.

I tend to look at the overall picture rather than arguing from the angle of 'Eorzea is always correct'. If others wish to do otherwise, so be it - though I strongly disagree with the idea of brushing aside Eorzea's growing imperialistic behaviour. Let's not pretend as if Eorzea is a particularly pleasant place. Very few places in Hydaelyn are without issues, even those that have undergone reform.

It's actually pretty startling how many posters on this board rush to blame anyone but Eorzea when something shady takes place. You do realise that Hingashi endured great turmoil, right? As in, the entire place was undergoing strife and hardship as a result of a power struggle. There's currently a period of peace. So, no - people don't get to go 'ahaha thats on them if hingashi's government falls xD'. If an Eorzean organisation heavily tied to a specific member of the Eorzean Alliance caused suffering through imperialistic actions then it is Eorzea that shoulders the blame.

Hingashi is free to set tariffs as it sees fit. It does not deserve to be undermined by those seeking to exploit the region for their own gain, especially when those individuals are not even native to the region. It's exactly why there are laws in place in the real world to prevent foreign countries from profiteering off of certain ventures.

[Iscah]

As I pointed out in another thread, if the exact same scenario was playing out and it was Eorzea on the receiving end then Eorzea would very likely be crying foul. Imperialistic tendencies are imperialistic tendencies. Garlemald needs to work on how it operates on the world stage, yet so too does Eorzea. One can criticise both, after all.

And as I pointed out in that thread, if a private company is circumventing Hingan tariffs in Hingan territory, then it is Hingashi's job to do something about it.

If the scenario was playing out in reverse - if a Hingan merchant company was trying to set up camp on an unclaimed island off the coast of Aldenard - who would be dealing with that? Would the Eorzeans expect the Hingan government to send someone (diplomats? soldiers?) to sort it out, or would they send their own people to claim the island as rightfully part of their territory and under their jurisdiction?

It could be seen as more of an "imperialistic" move to send official Eorzean representatives halfway across the world to Eureka and enforce Eorzean law, than to leave the issue to be dealt with by the country that owns the territory.

[Theodric]

And as I pointed out in that thread, if a private company is circumventing Hingan tariffs in Hingan territory, then it is Hingashi's job to do something about it.

If the scenario was playing out in reverse - if a Hingan merchant company was trying to set up camp on an unclaimed island off the coast of Aldenard - who would be dealing with that? Would the Eorzeans expect the Hingan government to send someone (diplomats? soldiers?) to sort it out, or would they send their own people to claim the island as rightfully part of their territory and under their jurisdiction?

It could be seen as more of an "imperialistic" move to send official Eorzean representatives halfway across the world to Eureka and enforce Eorzean law, than to leave the issue to be dealt with by the country that owns the territory.

It ceases to be a private company when it influences government decisions and makes use of what is essentially a living super weapon for its own ends.

I suspect this is yet another case of the '#EorzeaDidNothingWrong' card being pulled out, as it tends to be used for pretty much everything these days.

It isn't just Hingashi's responsibility to deal with the matter. Eorzea and those operating under its banner, have a responsibility to act with dignity and respect on the world stage. If they do not, then they need to be called out on it - not encouraged or dismissed.

I'd also highlight my earlier point. Hingashi suffered immense strife in the past and is currently enjoying a period of peace. Hingashi's current strength is trade - if that is lessened, then there's a real risk of further instability. If it results in bloodshed - as is likely, due to the nation's history - then innocent people will suffer and perish.

That blood would, to a degree, be on the hands of those seeking to undermine Hingashi.

Trade wars are not pleasant - and depending on how they play out, they can be just as nasty as physical wars.

I do not doubt that if it was Garlemald engaging in such practices that there would be a huge condemnation and cry for vengeance from various posters on this board. So it is rather strange to see imperialistic and dubious actions dismissed whenever they're at the hands of Eorzean based organisations and representatives.

[LineageRazor]

#EorzeaDidNothingWrong

Said, I'm pretty sure no one on any thread in the lodestone forums. Ever. Dear lord.

And would Eorzea consider it an act of war if a company from a foreign nation set up competitive trade with Eorzea? It boggles my mind that you think they would. Lolorito might get pissy, and he's shady enough to maybe do something underhanded about it, but at no point would the government of any Eorzean nation become involved. Or likely even care much.

No, the actions of Rowena and Lolorito, acting in capacity as businessmen and -women does not even remotely point to any sort of "Eorzean imperialism"!

[ObsidianFire]

The Confederacy was also given aid on a number of occasions by the Warrior of Light and other individuals operating on Eorzea's behalf. An organisation that resorts to strong arming passing vessels into paying its 'Ruby Tithe'. Any who refuse are stripped of their belongings and taken prisoner - as can be seen with some of the flavour NPC's situated within their home base.

The Confederacy has also had jurisdiction over the Ruby Sea for as long as everyone in Doma and Hingashi can remember. If Hingashi really wanted the Confederates out of the Ruby Sea, they would have forced them out long ago. The only reason why Hingashi has refused to play ball with the Confederates in recent times is because Yotsuyu declared them to be unlawful under Garlean rule. The Hingans decided that was fine since that meant they didn't have to pay the Ruby Tithe which they'd been paying for as long as they could remember.

Incidentally, the East Aldenard Trading Company isn't complaining about the Confederates' tithe; they're just happy to be able to do business with them since the Confederates have stuff the EATC wants at reasonable prices. Ironically the people who are buying Confederate goods from the EATC is Hingashi, who the Conferates used to do a lot of business with. Ever since the Confederates were banned from coming to Kugane there's been a shortage of goods from the Ruby Sea in Kugane itself.

And as I pointed out in that thread, if a private company is circumventing Hingan tariffs in Hingan territory, then it is Hingashi's job to do something about it.

If the scenario was playing out in reverse - if a Hingan merchant company was trying to set up camp on an unclaimed island off the coast of Aldenard - who would be dealing with that? Would the Eorzeans expect the Hingan government to send someone (diplomats? soldiers?) to sort it out, or would they send their own people to claim the island as rightfully part of their territory and under their jurisdiction?

Provided they weren't bothering the Eorzeans, the Eorzeans probably wouldn't do anything. As it is, this is already happening somewhat, only it's not with Hingashi, it's with the remains of the XIVth Legion. Castrum Marinum is portrayed as being somewhere near The Cieldalaes, a group of islands in the Rhotano Sea halfway between Limsa Lominsa and Ul'dah. It'd be pretty hard to find a better place to threaten Eorzean shipping lanes. If the other Castrums are anything to go by, Eorzea isn't doing anything about them provided they don't start anything either (yes, I know the time-bubble is a thing, but considering Balasaur's Wall is still manned after all this time... yeah...). So Castrum Marinum is most likely still there. And if the Eorzeans are so busy they aren't bothering with the XIVth Legion, I have a really hard time seeing them bothering with anyone else.

Besides, that sounds like it'd be something right up Limsa's alley to look into. And Limsa only really cares about stuff like that if traders don't stick to the code. So long as they are legitimatize traders and not smugglers, I don't see anyone having a problem if Hingashi pulled something like that.

[Iscah]

I suspect this is yet another case of the '#EorzeaDidNothingWrong' card being pulled out, as it tends to be used for pretty much everything these days.

I'm not saying Eorzea has done nothing wrong. There are dark elements in each of the countries of the Alliance. Pirates in Limsa, corruption in Ul'dah, Ishgard's past. But at the same time in all these places, the countries' current leaders are people who want to change that, improve the lives of their people and make a better future. I'm hopeful that they can live up to those ideals. (And equally hopeful that the good side of Garlemald can overcome the country's dark core and change it for the better, too.)

But the things you keep bringing up are not the negative things that do exist in the Eorzean states. You're focusing on this private trade enterprise and holding it up as a sign of the Alliance having "imperialistic tendencies" then asking why nobody is condemning Eorzea's imperialistic tendencies. And the answer, for me at least, is because it isn't showing them.

It's not #EorzeaDidNothingWrong, it's #EorzeaDidn'tDoWhatYou'reBlamingThemForDoing.


So, aside of your belief that the government should be held diplomatically responsible for the actions of a private company, what is the Eorzean Alliance doing that is imperialistic? They are not trying to expand their borders or take over other countries.

I don't think they even want to directly engage with Garlemald. The problem is that their actual enemy, an Ascian, is deep in the heart of it.

I'm rewatching the cutscene of the meeting on Youtube, which isn't playing really well on my computer so I might have missed some lines, but the concerns they talk about are a potential inability to defend themselves if Garlemald attempts to retake Doma and Ala Mhigo, and how to target the Ascian-disguised-as-Zenos within Garlemald, rather than the country.

I'm also uneasy about their plans to destabilise the Empire by spreading unrest (which wasn't even the theme of the conversation until Thancred proposed his scheme), but their motive is not imperialistic. They are not doing it so they can swoop in and capture Garlemald for themselves. Their concern remains the mission that the Scions have been committed to from the start - except now it has become bigger and more difficult and tangled up in world politics.

I'm not sure I like it, but I can see - from all our interactions with them so far - that the people making these choices are good people, trying to do what's best for their world and fight a darkness that goes beyond countries and politics and into the very core of reality. I want to think that what they are doing is the best decision they could make in the circumstances.

All this does not put me against the prospect of Garlemald being redeemable or internally complex. Or seeing fault in the actions of the Eorzean Alliance if it is actual fault on the part of the Alliance and not unallied individuals who happen to come from their country.

Provided they weren't bothering the Eorzeans, the Eorzeans probably wouldn't do anything. As it is, this is already happening somewhat, only it's not with Hingashi, it's with the remains of the XIVth Legion. Castrum Marinum is portrayed as being somewhere near The Cieldalaes, a group of islands in the Rhotano Sea halfway between Limsa Lominsa and Ul'dah. It'd be pretty hard to find a better place to threaten Eorzean shipping lanes. If the other Castrums are anything to go by, Eorzea isn't doing anything about them provided they don't start anything either (yes, I know the time-bubble is a thing, but considering Balasaur's Wall is still manned after all this time... yeah...). So Castrum Marinum is most likely still there. And if the Eorzeans are so busy they aren't bothering with the XIVth Legion, I have a really hard time seeing them bothering with anyone else.

Fair point - going by their lack of action against the castrums, they may not be concerned about the hypothetical Hingan trading post either. But if it happened, and they did object, I still think it would be their own responsibility (and/or right) to act against it rather than expecting Hingashi to deal with it for them.

I suspect a large part of the issue is that many come here not to discuss the lore as a whole, but to gush over Eorzea and Eorzeans at every turn.

You say that like gushing over likeable characters from the 'home' country of a fictional world designed for our enjoyment is a bad thing.

[Kallera]

Meh, I wouldn't call the indepenent business ventures of Rowena as an example of imperialism. She has contacts and business ventures in the empire as well. And while he is even shadier business, Lolorito is the same thing.

I do think Eorzea, at times in the plot, is starting to adopt more extreme methods as time goes on, and I'd be unenthusiastic about the idea of unification, but they are not alone in becoming more and more extreme and is probably what the Ascians desire out of reaction among the nations, they want a side desperate and powerful enough to "press the red button" as it were, and that need not be the Empire, nor Eorzea the target. The Grand Companies are using thaumaturgical bomb collars, a spy network of considerable reach on crystals and faith, anti primal summoning teams. All these things are beneficial now, but its no leap of logic to see their potential for misuse.

But coming back to the invasion, I kinda want this to be a bloodbath in the Empire's favor. They've spent a considerable amount of time in the game getting beaten and while I wouldn't want it to be easy, this would be a good time to show they aren't going to sit there and get dismantled.

But that is assuming said invasion takes place, or doesn't result in a standoff/no man's land situation on the Eorzean front as well. If that happens it might be what is needed for a chance for the ascians to be found out in time and both factions to lay down their arms... or for political instability/resources to make things come to a head.

[DarthSanguine]

Castrum Marinum is portrayed as being somewhere near The Cieldalaes, a group of islands in the Rhotano Sea halfway between Limsa Lominsa and Ul'dah.

Castrum Marinum is the building just off of Cape Westwind in Western Thanalan. It is not in the middle of the Rhotano.