Are Dark Knights really that bad right now?

[whiskeybravo]

the conversation was about how DRK gap performance compared to WAR its way bigger at lower skilled players and by end the skill need it to perform the job properly is higher, not about the diference betwen high skilled players, you can't use O8S to prove otherwhise bcs those players dint clear it, at high percentile is well know DRK is 200 or more under WAR.

People picking data points to reinforce their opinion is nothing new. Hierro is correct in looking at the difference of high-skill level players to determine what true gap exists, and others are looking at 50% and seeing there is a larger disparity between mid-level WAR/DRK play. They are correct in their own regard, but trying to compare the 2 is apples and oranges. One doesn't really tell you anything about the other.

And we all know why this is true. WAR simply has a 1-button super ability, nearly 50% of their entire damage output is fell cleave spam. Once you learn how to get 5 GCD IR it it's very easy to repeat consistently and typically doesn't require much adjustment for any fight.

[ArianeEwah]

I like how you pick and choose your stats. If we were to take a look at O8S, a fight with plenty of up time and at 50th percentile, the difference between WAR and DRK is ~240 DPS. In a fight with an rDPS requirement of like 32k, that's even less than a 1% difference in what the party needs. That difference shrinks the higher up you go.

It's funny how you just missed my point there.

shao32 already said it, O8s just represents a small number of people who have actually cleared Sigma. 3 months ago, only ~3% of EU/NA have actually cleared Sigma.

So, 3% of the best players only are represented in those graphs. You can't call that "low skill".

To actually show the difference of well played and bad played tanks, we need a more common duty. And O6s provides more uptime than O8s, too.

Also, we are not comparing tank DPS difference to rDPS. That doesn't make any sense.

[Aana]

People picking data points to reinforce their opinion is nothing new. Hierro is correct in looking at the difference of high-skill level players to determine what true gap exists, and others are looking at 50% and seeing there is a larger disparity between mid-level WAR/DRK play. They are correct in their own regard, but trying to compare the 2 is apples and oranges. One doesn't really tell you anything about the other.

And we all know why this is true. WAR simply has a 1-button super ability, nearly 50% of their entire damage output is fell cleave spam. Once you learn how to get 5 GCD IR it it's very easy to repeat consistently and typically doesn't require much adjustment for any fight.

So much this.

Pld/Drk are virtually identical in DPS when considering all 4 fights. 0.1%. (4872 pld vs 4863 Drk).

Each specific fight will differ and looking at different skill bands will differ, but on balance, they are fuctionally equal when you look at ALL fights and ALL ranges compiled together.

War has the best damage. Everyone already knows this. A lot dont realize that this gap vanishes at maximum performance in every fight except train. All this shows is that the potential of each class in single target situations is uniform under optimal conditions and the widening gap between war and Pld/Drk at lower skills is due to the consistency and ease of pulling war damage from our IR bums. (One more reason i wish they never touched it. Good wars were much more distinguishable from the pack but thats another whiney post for another day). War dominates the train because IR on a pack of adds gets real broken real fast. (Yet another reason they never should have combined zerk/IR....argh!)

Fun facts we learn from actual data:

*Pld/Drk are nearly identical if you dont cherry pick and look at the entire raid tier as a whole.
*3/4 fights all 3 tanks have nearly identical max potential
*That potential isnt realized at lower levels of play. Primarily due to faceroll IR. But the Drk vs Pld difference is fairly small in favor of ease on pld.

There is some truth to 'git gud' as both pld and Drk are rewarded significantly by actually playing better. This is why people say Drk isnt in that bad of a spot. It's right there with pld. War is the problem, not Drk.

When you look at how all 3 perform on all raid content it becomes quite clear. Pld/Drk are generally ok. They scale with skill. They are always within a stonesthrow of each other on balance accross all fights. And both are capable tanks in the non-dps areas (enmity/mitigation). The outlier is still war. IR is simply to easy to execute in its current form and has WAAAY to much impact on overall damage. So scrubby wars dont fall off a dps cliff like pld/drk do, and the best wars cant translate this powerful skill into any type of edge at the highest end as the maximum potential for all 3 is still the same. Anyone who thinks any of the tanks are defensivly weak at this point needs a head check. All 3 have very good defensive capabilities at this stage. War just needs to have it's damage more closely related to the skill of the player and all 3 tanks would rise and fall at the same rate based on performance instead of EZGG fell cleaves.

[shao32]

People picking data points to reinforce their opinion is nothing new. Hierro is correct in looking at the difference of high-skill level players to determine what true gap exists, and others are looking at 50% and seeing there is a larger disparity between mid-level WAR/DRK play. They are correct in their own regard, but trying to compare the 2 is apples and oranges. One doesn't really tell you anything about the other.

And we all know why this is true. WAR simply has a 1-button super ability, nearly 50% of their entire damage output is fell cleave spam. Once you learn how to get 5 GCD IR it it's very easy to repeat consistently and typically doesn't require much adjustment for any fight.

yeah i dont say other thing but Ariane wasn't talking about top tier players who clear everything, it was talking about average players, those how clear the 2 and meaby 3 turns of sigma savage and extremes, this kind of player are part of the raider comunity too and they performance data is not showed in something they dint clear bcs they dont have the raid mates or the skill to kill, so thats why Hierro was wrong in that context.

[Launched]

It completely up-ended WAR's playstyle at cap and nearly secured WAR a spot in any end-game setting.

The whole balance of tanks sure wasn't changed that much, seeing as how it has always been WAR / (PLD/DRK) this entire expansion, but can you even say that making X a more set in stone choice didn't have repercussions?

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that WAR is the best/required tank when PLD has been the most played since 4.0. DRK was even played as much as (or more than) WAR until the Shake it Off fix in 4.1. PLD is the biggest problem with tanks in my opinion, because it does a lot of damage, has amazing mitigation after the block changes, and has the best utility that lets it do things WAR and DRK literally can't. WAR only stands out in DPS, and only by a small lead.

[Hierro]

It's funny how you just missed my point there.

shao32 already said it, O8s just represents a small number of people who have actually cleared Sigma. 3 months ago, only ~3% of EU/NA have actually cleared Sigma.

So, 3% of the best players only are represented in those graphs. You can't call that "low skill".

To actually show the difference of well played and bad played tanks, we need a more common duty. And O6s provides more uptime than O8s, too.

Also, we are not comparing tank DPS difference to rDPS. That doesn't make any sense.

Dang Ari, back at it again with the stat cherry picking. That ~3% clear rate has nothing to do with skill, and more to do with culture. JP has waaaay higher clear rates. Is that because their Japanese birth certificate comes with innate gaming knowledge and skill? Probably not, and probably has more to do with their raid finder culture.

To show what a job is capable of, you use a """"high skill"""" instance like O8S. A fight like O6S will only tell you what a glorified dummy fight will tell you, and we both know that's not much, or else we'd be preaching a triple melee meta with no casters. Instead, by focusing on a fight like O8S we can see how good players will work around mechanics while keeping uptime similar to O6S. We can see how the classes will differ and either display deficiencies or excesses. That's where we can see and make the proper judgment that DRK is a fine job.

Also, yes, we'll compare tank DPS to rDPS because any notion that "DRK isn't fine and holds a party back" implicitly connects to a notion that bringing them significantly decreases chances at success, and success in this game is meeting that rDPS requirement. Fact is, if anyone thinks DRK DPS is the factor in making or breaking an enrage, they got bigger things to worry about.

[WhyAmIHere]

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that WAR is the best/required tank when PLD has been the most played since 4.0. DRK was even played as much as (or more than) WAR until the Shake it Off fix in 4.1. PLD is the biggest problem with tanks in my opinion, because it does a lot of damage, has amazing mitigation after the block changes, and has the best utility that lets it do things WAR and DRK literally can't. WAR only stands out in DPS, and only by a small lead.

...yeah, you right there. Kinda let myself get too heated, but yeah.
So, amend my earlier point about how it was always WAR / (pld/drk), to where it was PLD / (war/drk), and how the differences between the two gave more weight to taking a WAR over the DRK.

[ArianeEwah]

still missing the point of this discussion

So, I am not going to bother anymore. Your posts also sound pretty insulting. It's you not following the discussion, but putting words in others mouth to festen your own discussion and opinion. If you want to state something completely different, don't link to other posts unrelated to your statement, and start your own.

yeah i dont say other thing but Ariane wasn't talking about top tier players who clear everything, it was talking about average players, those how clear the 2 and meaby 3 turns of sigma savage and extremes, this kind of player are part of the raider comunity too and they performance data is not showed in something they dint clear bcs they dont have the raid mates or the skill to kill, so thats why Hierro was wrong in that context.

point

[Hierro]

So, I am not going to bother anymore. Your posts also sound pretty insulting. It's you not following the discussion, but putting words in others mouth to festen your own discussion and opinion. If you want to state something completely different, don't link to other posts unrelated to your statement, and start your own.



point

All I did was address each point and give a rebuttal. If you want to call casual players who can't beat the tier a part of the raid community who hold valid opinions, then go ahead, but don't go saying "Durr you're still not agreeing, you're missing the point !"

[vVAstrAVv]

Yeah guys
EVERYTHING IS SERIOUS XO