Is the FFXIV story basically the PURGE?

[BillyKaplan]

It depends on whose perspective you're adapting. Remember, Ysayle's opposition were denizens much like the Heaven's Ward (people claiming to be good and righteous with less than honest goals). Heavenward was very much 'look at all the grey area we have!'

Ysayle lowered the wards and let the dragons into the Brume. Many innocents were slaughtered. I blame it on the shock-factory writing of the end of ARR, most of which didn't last through HW (give Raubahn a Magitek arm 2k19), but the fact remains that Ysayle did horrible things and laughed while doing so. "I didn't think that would happen!" is not only completely idiotic, but also stands in extreme contrast to how she behaved in that scene, acting a classic villain - at least in the English version.

[Kallera]

We do not know what exactly caused the flood of light on the first world. A lot of people misconstrue it as people being too nice or something, but it feels like a more specific significant event is needed other than "the good guys winning." Because good is more a relative term. Gaius believed himself good, even as he went rogue from his nation and attempted to "save Eorzea". But countries' fates do not necessarily represent the light or darkness on their own, even Eorzea can fall without causing the death of all life on the planet.

Their act of killing all of the ascians on their world likely was a big step towards how the flood came about. with no one to stand on the other side of the picture, who could say the first world would ever be ok again?

[Iscah]

I also dislike the story implication that “the Warriors of Darkness nearly destroyed their world because they did too much good fighting back the darkness” and tipped the balance too far.... so where does that leave us and what we’re doing? Surely it doesn’t mean we’re going to have to hold back and stop doing good just to keep the balance? It puts a dark cloud over our good deeds, and I hope we’re not going to have to wait too long to find out what it all means.

[Kallera]

I also dislike the story implication that “the Warriors of Darkness nearly destroyed their world because they did too much good fighting back the darkness” and tipped the balance too far.... so where does that leave us and what we’re doing? Surely it doesn’t mean we’re going to have to hold back and stop doing good just to keep the balance? It puts a dark cloud over our good deeds, and I hope we’re not going to have to wait too long to find out what it all means.

Keep in mind reality is currently broken. and it doesn't necessarily mean good deeds. There were specific acts the WoD did to essentially snuff out darkness' place and representation. And the only major representitive we've seen on that front are the Ascians. It was first theorized that the WoD were a mortal agent of Zodiark, in the same role and divine relationship to the diety as us to Hydaelyn, but it doesn't seem like that is the case at this time, as they were WoL with seemingly no connection to him at all.

[JunseiKei]

Ysayle lowered the wards and let the dragons into the Brume. Many innocents were slaughtered. I blame it on the shock-factory writing of the end of ARR, most of which didn't last through HW (give Raubahn a Magitek arm 2k19), but the fact remains that Ysayle did horrible things and laughed while doing so. "I didn't think that would happen!" is not only completely idiotic, but also stands in extreme contrast to how she behaved in that scene, acting a classic villain - at least in the English version.

... After witnessing how Ishgardian progenitors betrayed dragonkind, indoctrinating a lie as their entire foundry, thanks to the Echo. Those that tried to reason with their peers were branded heretics and hunted down. Neither side was "innocent," but there were casualties on both sides that were bystanders caught in the crossfire.

[Kallera]

... After witnessing how Ishgardian progenitors betrayed dragonkind, indoctrinating a lie as their entire foundry, thanks to the Echo. Those that tried to reason with their peers were branded heretics and hunted down. Neither side was "innocent," but there were casualties on both sides that were bystanders caught in the crossfire.

I'm sure Ysayle was ready for at least some of the death that followed. The mistake was that Yslaye thought it would end. That the church and leaders of Ishgard would be targeted and toppled at last in vengeance by Nidhogg's forces. But Nidhogg specifically did not target them, at least not in any significant capacity, because he wanted the war to keep going. Nidhogg's idea of vengence wasn't winning the war, but waging it and his wrath eternally on Ishgard's people.


So instead of the people Ysayle believed were behind the injustices being purposefully killed, she saw only Brume victims and random soldiers being slaughtered senselessly.

[JunseiKei]

I'm sure Ysayle was ready for at least some of the death that followed. The mistake was that Yslaye thought it would end. That the church and leaders of Ishgard would be targeted and toppled at last in vengeance by Nidhogg's forces. But Nidhogg specifically did not target them, at least not in any significant capacity, because he wanted the war to keep going. Nidhogg's idea of vengence wasn't winning the war, but waging it and his wrath eternally on Ishgard's people.


So instead of the people Ysayle believed were behind the injustices being purposefully killed, she saw only Brume victims and random soldiers being slaughtered senselessly.

Yes, which is how you can have "good" people do horrible things. Like someone else pointed out about the Garleans - they want the same thing we do, to stop primals from being summoned and draining the aether from our home. I'd call that a fairly noble ideal. However, the means in which they are trying to achieve it is what is "evil" (and here I'd argue it's amoral rather than evil).

[BillyKaplan]

A lot of people misconstrue it as people being too nice or something

The sooner people detach "light and darkness" from "good and evil" the more this debate can progress. The two pairs are unrelated.

... After witnessing how Ishgardian progenitors betrayed dragonkind, indoctrinating a lie as their entire foundry, thanks to the Echo. Those that tried to reason with their peers were branded heretics and hunted down. Neither side was "innocent," but there were casualties on both sides that were bystanders caught in the crossfire.

You speak of "sides" but that's the kind of view that gets hundreds if not thousands of those bystanders slaughtered. That said.

https://youtu.be/A4ogo3d8Fp0?t=52m37s

"The sons must pay for their fathers' misdeeds. Only then will the cycle be broken" - implies she wants the war to end and thinks Ishgard is in the wrong but that's the absolute mindset of a murderous tyrant.
"The sinners' feeble magicks are undone! Come! Claim your retribution!" - she knows this is all about revenge, she knows what's about to happen.
But see here's the thing. What ambiguoity you had about her here goes to hell with this:

"Ahahahahahahaha!"
This is not someone good. This is a crazy, bloodthirsty murderer who just unleashed beings of untold might and magicks onto a city that not all of them are capable of even fending for themselves. 3.0 retconned her character, and retconned her hard, but this scene clearly paints her as a villain. She's not just an antagonist, and we've seen our fair share of people who stood against us but were in it for the right reasons at lesat. Ysayle, as depicted in 2.5, is just bad.

You want someone who knows the wrongs done and wants to fix it? Aymeric. Hauchy. The WoL. Ysayle snapped out of it in 3.0 but that doesn't erase her actions in 2.5, and in many ways, the only possible conclusion to her story after that was a redeemer's death.

[JunseiKei]

The sooner people detach "light and darkness" from "good and evil" the more this debate can progress. The two pairs are unrelated.



You speak of "sides" but that's the kind of view that gets hundreds if not thousands of those bystanders slaughtered. That said.

https://youtu.be/A4ogo3d8Fp0?t=52m37s

"The sons must pay for their fathers' misdeeds. Only then will the cycle be broken" - implies she wants the war to end and thinks Ishgard is in the wrong but that's the absolute mindset of a murderous tyrant.
"The sinners' feeble magicks are undone! Come! Claim your retribution!" - she knows this is all about revenge, she knows what's about to happen.
But see here's the thing. What ambiguoity you had about her here goes to hell with this:

"Ahahahahahahaha!"
This is not someone good. This is a crazy, bloodthirsty murderer who just unleashed beings of untold might and magicks onto a city that not all of them are capable of even fending for themselves. 3.0 retconned her character, and retconned her hard, but this scene clearly paints her as a villain. She's not just an antagonist, and we've seen our fair share of people who stood against us but were in it for the right reasons at lesat. Ysayle, as depicted in 2.5, is just bad.

You want someone who knows the wrongs done and wants to fix it? Aymeric. Hauchy. The WoL. Ysayle snapped out of it in 3.0 but that doesn't erase her actions in 2.5, and in many ways, the only possible conclusion to her story after that was a redeemer's death.

Yes, sides. The Ishgardians that were evil and killed for their lust for power. The dragons that were betrayed and grieved for the loss of one of the First Brood. That's the two sides of the Dragonsong War that I was speaking of (there are of course others in there; the WoL being completely annexed but getting embroiled in the conflict, the dragons that want no part in the war, Nidhogg and his quest for vengeance with no redemption for Ishgard, the outcasts of Ishgards being promised a better tomorrow and falling victim to honeyed words of the heretics (or forced into it) - there's a lot of good and evil in Heavensward.

Ysayle definitely thought Ishgard was in the wrong. Turns out, they were. The founders did, after-all, start the whole mess. However, what she thinks can break the cycle is incorrect. Considering she thought she was Shiva reborn, only learning the truth from Hraesvelgr. It brought about the cycle of her characters' change. We see the same change in Estinien at the same time. He was hardly different than Ysayle. Was he less evil because his victims were dragons and not Ishgardians, despite the dragons being portrayed to be just as "human" as any of the other races (Elezen, Hyur, Au Ra, Miqo'te, Roegadyn, Lalafell)?

Retconned isn't what I think you mean. It'd be bad story telling to completely reveal a character, or they'd be completely shallow if you didn't intend for them to grow. From how you worded your response, it sounds like characters like Guts cannot exist (which there's no concise way I can describe what I mean because sometimes I just fail with words, so I leave this video to explain what I mean).

[BillyKaplan]

He was hardly different than Ysayle. Was he less evil because his victims were dragons and not Ishgardians, despite the dragons being portrayed to be just as "human" as any of the other races (Elezen, Hyur, Au Ra, Miqo'te, Roegadyn, Lalafell)?

Nope, he was just as bad, just as blinded by the whole mess. I can't even say he doesn't have "innocent blood" on his hands either because he likely took what chance he had to murder young dragons before they became an even bigger threat, or dragons who didn't wish to partake in the conflict.

It'd be bad story telling to completely reveal a character, or they'd be completely shallow if you didn't intend for them to grow.

The entirety of the end of ARR was written out of relevance. The entire Ul'dah mess was basically handwaved away with the only lasting consequence was Raubahn's arm. Y'shtola can "see" just fine and we never saw Thancred use his magic to begin with so the loss of that isn't even negligible, it might as well not be there. The storytelling had an angle and motivation that did not fit in the least with what came after. It's not retconning in the sense that they don't deny it existed in the past, but with how bad a record scratch was heard when you meet Ysayle later, compared to her portrayal which I linked to, they might as well have done that. You're speaking out of the assumption that when we meet Ysayle in 3.0, it's a logical progression of her character after we see her in 2.5. To me, it is not. I cannot believe the woman who laughed maniacally as she unleashed dragons upon Ishgard, calling for them to have their revenge, honestly didn't see the carnage that followed. 3.0 Ysayle is an amazing character. Her ties as a character to Ysayle in 2.5 are skin deep.
And ultimately doesn't negate the original point brought up regarding her, that despite being given the Echo by Hydaelyn, she did some pretty messed up stuff. When we eventually march into Garlemald, I should hope they don't show the WoL laughing themselves silly like she was shown in Ishgard. We'd certainly not send dragons upon the helpless.