White Raven earring given out at The Rising event 2018

[polyphonica]

Leaving the earrings aside or any exclusive reward for that matter at the door. I cannot be the only person that feel it is slightly worrying that SE has to provide incentives via rewards to get people to take part in content. I do not know it just seems that SE has a lack of faith in their content / class design if they need to use carrot on a stick to get players to become engaged. Do not get me wrong rewards are awesome, but I cannot say that I have ever engaged in a content simply for a reward. Probably the only person that feels this way since I guess that is the bases of game design.

I would say, from conversations about a lot of other MMOs these days as well, rewards are now an important incentivizing factor for many players. In fact, if you check social media whenever an FFXIV event is announced, many of the initial comments/complaints revolve around the rewards. This is also why the promotional material feature the rewards prominently. I guess people have been sort of reprogrammed to not just play videogames for the inherent fun, but to chase the carrot. (Perhaps part of this is because the MMO genre in general relies on repetition/grinding as a time sink, so people will do things that become less fun over time as long as there's light at the end of the tunnel.)

[KisaiTenshi]

I guess people have been sort of reprogrammed to not just play videogames for the inherent fun, but to chase the carrot.

Almost. Rather games have been sliding towards casino-slot-machine skinner boxes, and players have been conditioned to do the least amount of work for the greatest reward, even if it means breaking the rules.

[Ruf]

Almost. Rather games have been sliding towards casino-slot-machine skinner boxes, and players have been conditioned to do the least amount of work for the greatest reward, even if it means breaking the rules.

Wooooooowooooow

[Tint]

I would say, from conversations about a lot of other MMOs these days as well, rewards are now an important incentivizing factor for many players.

It already was this way when I startetd playing my first MMO in 2003. You were always grinding towards some goal, or at least you were helping other people towards their goal.

Almost. Rather games have been sliding towards casino-slot-machine skinner boxes, and players have been conditioned to do the least amount of work for the greatest reward, even if it means breaking the rules.

You mean like getting these earrings for doing 3 easy fates instead for beating a super hard bossfight?

[ko_]

It already was this way when I startetd playing my first MMO in 2003. You were always grinding towards some goal, or at least you were helping other people towards their goal.



You mean like getting these earrings for doing 3 easy fates instead for beating a super hard bossfight?

You say that, but I bet there's a large group of people who can't even do THAT. - yes I know you're just being sarcastic to the person you qouted.. but I seen too many people fail things in this game. I bet there's a large group who want the fates nerfed lol.

[kikix12]

Rewards are nice and all, but I think that you people forgot why this thread was even made, really. It's not about the reward, it's about it being 'exclusive' previously but made open for a wide number of people.

The only real problem is that there were any items made 'exclusive' in the first place though. Personally I am against exclusive or limited rewards in any MMO game. Heck, in any game. Which is why event-tied rewards in games like Pokemon are horrendous idea as well. They should never have begun with that. And similarly, item mall (which really shouldn't even have been implemented in a subscription-based game) should be separated from the game. In-game rewards should stay in-game, not be put on the item mall. They should be re-obtainable, like bought from the merchant during future iterations of the event, possibly with whatever token is earned in it rather than gil.

"Limiting" rewards leads to situations like this. Some people don't care about others getting the same stuff they did, because they know they don't actually lose anything out of it. Others feel somehow harmed for whatever reason. And those that didn't get the rewards the first time around are going to complain that they don't have access to the item or that they have to pay (outrageous) prices for the rewards that others got for free. It's fine for physical limited editions, like the statues, plushies and what not. Those can be gotten from those that bought them originally. Ultimately everything in the real world is "limited edition" since everything will stop being produced once better products are made, and that's fine. It's not fine for digital stuff that on top of being "limited time only" for obtaining is also going to disappear in a couple of years when the servers are gonna be taken down.

[Lambdafish]

The only real problem is that there were any items made 'exclusive' in the first place though.

How else could it have been done? People knew full well going into the Nael fight that the event was limited time, as it had already been announced that the servers were going to be closed to make way for ARR. We aren't talking about a seasonal event that is scheduled with a start and end date, the end date for the Nael "limited event" was literally the game shutting down for good. The 1.0 content cannot appear ever again in their original form because they are from an entirely different game, that is why the rewards are "exclusive".

Nobody on either side is arguing for timed exclusives, they are a bad idea, but that doesn't make the earrings in this event right either. Its an unfortunate quirk of the transition from 1.0 to 2.0 that made items such as the manderville earrings and white ravens earrings "timed exclusives", the real argument is not respecting the time and effort that players went through by not putting them in content with similar theme and difficulty like T9 Savage, or UCoB, instead putting them in the easiest content imaginable.

The arguement being put forward (because it needs to be made clear apparently):

- White ravens earrings have a place in ARR and beyond, the rising event is not it.
- The rising event earrings could have easily be named something else, and very much should have been.
- Forced expiration of rewards is disrespectful to those who took the time, money, and energy to gather them.

Nobody is asking for more timed exclusives, in fact the opposite is true, people are asking for rewards and content that hold value permenantly.

[BillyKaplan]

people are asking for rewards and content that hold value permenantly.

You're in the wrong game then. Or hold a viewpoint that doesn't work with this game.
When Stormblood came out and HW content was made unsyncable, Yoshi-P himself, in one of the LLs preceding the release, encouraged people to run the HW Extremes and Savages unsynced now that it was made easier. In this game, the value you speak of it itself is the most time gated thing of all because in three weeks we'll get a new patch, with new gear, and even UwU will already be made easier.
The content these earrings came from is five years old. How hard do you think it would've been to get them had the content remained accessible, with the game's current policy of reducing difficulty as time passes to allow for bigger audiences to throw themselves at it? With unsync and max Echo? Would you say it had been as easy as... a series of FATEs, perhaps...?

And I get that this became the debate now, Darrcy aptly placed the goalposts a couple of posts back with their disdain of the undersized party option. But let's be honest here, does anyone really think they're going to change that? From a developer's point of view, it makes zero sense. Let's say UwU became unsync-locked, you can't undersized it.
That content is dead once it stops being relevant and the hardcore crowd moves on.
There are two reasons why HW Ex trials are still ran so much: 1. you can cheese through them (farming or WT), 2. Mentor roulette. You wouldn't have been able to get this many people in there without enabling undersized party. I mean, Ex trials are a big part of why Mentor roulette even exists, because people don't run that content willingly. And the sort of content we're talking about here won't make it into the Mentor roulette anyway.

With this in mind, the devs seem to keep on making content more accessible, mostly by making it easier (nerfs to content, or buffs over time to players via gear and level). In light of this policy, the earrings themselves fall well in line with everything else.
Now, if you want to argue against that policy, I won't stop you. I'm a guy wearing the bunny outfit, after all, I know what it's like to push rocks up a mountain. But this debate has long since stopped being about the earrings and the event. Let's at least all be honest about that

[Darrcyphfeid]

You're in the wrong game then. Or hold a viewpoint that doesn't work with this game.

This is distinctly possible now. And if so, then so be it; those of us whom are unhappy will gradually lose interest and find other games that satisfy that particular itch. But the game wasn't always like this, and even Yoshida's opinion seems to flipflop. Sometimes within the same interview.

Insofar as the game not always being like this: Even ignoring the undersized party toggle, there used to be structure and cohesion to the endgame setup. You needed to beat Garuda to do Ifrit, to do Titan. You needed to do Leviathan and Moogle, and then you could do Ramuh. You needed to do Ramuh to do Shiva. You needed to beat Twintania to access Second Coil, Nael to do Final Coil. There were people that complained about that, and there were people that pushed back. I'm not sure the situations - then and now - are necessarily any different, they've just swapped positions. I have no way of knowing if "you're playing the wrong game" was a valid argument then. It probably was.

And with regards to the voices in control of the game, as of two months ago:

ただ、今現在でも“絶バハムート討滅戦”に挑戦されている方もグローバルでもたくさんいらっしゃるので、制限解除の対象にはせずにおいておきます。あまり数を増やしすぎても、「いつになったら次に行けるんだ」という感覚をうけてしまいますしね。
Yoshida: Even to this day, we have a large amount of people around the world, still challenging Bahamut (Ultimate) and we are going to leave the ultimate fights levelsynced. Also, If we have too many of these ultimate fights, some players might think "When are we going to catch up and be able to challenge the next ultimate fight".

If Yoshida and the development team would be more open and properly communicate their stance, we could make our decisions about how seriously or casually to take the game. To gauge how much of a time investment anything was actually worth. But we don't get that, so we try to leave feedback to improve the game experience for ourselves and those like us - and the result, ultimately, is this thread. And others like it.

Now, if you want to argue against that policy, I won't stop you. I'm a guy wearing the bunny outfit, after all, I know what it's like to push rocks up a mountain. But this debate has long since stopped being about the earrings and the event.

They're the same debate as far as I'm concerned. One of them is simply the symptom (White Ravens), while the other is the root cause.

Ship done sailed on the former - sailed the moment they deleted the threads that were created ~2 months ago when the information was first datamined - so we either start a new thread to continue discussing this, or we just keep using this one and hope the community team is keeping tabs so they can more easily pass the sentiments on to a place where it might have some effect.

[kikix12]

How else could it have been done?

Um...By not saying that these rewards will not come back?! I mean, it's simple. It's the promise of these being those exclusive items that no one will ever get that pissed people. If they openly stated that these may be obtainable in 2.0 or further, the opponents of these rewards would have no guns to shoot with. That's all this discussion is about, the rewards.

Nobody is asking for more timed exclusives, in fact the opposite is true, people are asking for rewards and content that hold value permenantly.

..."Nobody is asking for more timed exlusives, we just want more timed exclusives." There, fixed it for you.

The only way for something to hold value permanently is:
a) For people to stop being elitist about item possession. At that point ALL the gear in the game holds value permanently. Glamour value.
b) For items to be in limited supply, therefore once either time passes or a limited number of them are obtained, they can no longer be obtained by others. Aka...timed exclusives.


There is no other way. And clearly many people clutch to their elitist "I have this and you don't, I'm the man!" ideology...so you're asking simply for b to happen more.

Well, I guess there is technically a third option, have difficult content that doesn't get easier that gates rewards even though they are technically unlimited...but even then those items WILL lose value with time. Just a lot slower.