The Road to 5.0

[ObsidianFire]

^That more has to do with where the term "Beast Tribe" even comes from. It's a Garlean term that is used to talk about any race the Garleans consider to be "uncivilized" or "savages" (and yes, the Garleans refer to all Eorzeans, including the WoL, as Savages quite often). The Eorzeans borrowed it from them. In Othard though, the term "Beast Tribe" doesn't even exist and the "Beast Tribes" are culturally just considered to be another race like Roegadyns and Au Ra are another race.

[Lauront]

I wonder if Varis is going to try to backstab Elidibus like Thordan did Lahabrea.

He seems more cautiously optimistic then truly trusting of his methods, though the fact that he's allowing him to potentially stir up dissent within Garlemald by sending Zenos' followers after the Populares is a bit concerning.

Thordan could only pull that stuff off because you had already weakened the Ascians in question and he had the eye of Nidhogg at his disposal, and he was an eikon and able to manifest an aetheric sword to go along with it; it was an ideal set of circumstances. Bear in mind several of these things alone would not ordinarily suffice to slay an Ascian overlord. For Varis to pull off a similar feat would be rather incredible.

If you mean outsmarts, he may have greater chances there but again, Elidibus is a very skilled/gifted manipulator. Igeyorhm and Lahabrea were much more direct in their intentions.

[Lauront]

^That more has to do with where the term "Beast Tribe" even comes from. It's a Garlean term that is used to talk about any race the Garleans consider to be "uncivilized" or "savages" (and yes, the Garleans refer to all Eorzeans, including the WoL, as Savages quite often). The Eorzeans borrowed it from them. In Othard though, the term "Beast Tribe" doesn't even exist and the "Beast Tribes" are culturally just considered to be another race like Roegadyns and Au Ra are another race.

Probably because the Eorzeans' encounters with beast tribes were no different to those of the Garleans. The Ixal, Amaljaa and Sahagin are generally the prime examples of these races and in all these instances you side with an apostate segment of the race. If the Othardian beast tribes behaved along similar lines, they would no doubt be called similar things. In fact, the way some of the Xaela behave would probably qualify them for it, but generally they present themselves as civilised in their interactions with the outside world.

Had the Sylphs or Ananta been the prime examples, the appellation may have been seen as a little bit much.

[Theodric]

Thordan could only pull that stuff off because you had already weakened the Ascians in question and he had the eye of Nidhogg at his disposal, and he was an eikon and able to manifest an aetheric sword to go along with it; it was an ideal set of circumstances. For Varis to pull off a similar feat would be rather incredible.

In the lore book, at least, he's described as an excellent tactician and someone who has rarely lost a match where a Garlean game of strategy is concerned. It'd be pleasant to see that side of him in-game at some point since so far his appearances have been rather brief and he's been forced to take a backseat as other characters have had the focus. I can't help but see him as somewhat similar to Erwin Smith from Attack on Titan - a man who is exceptionally ruthless out of necessity. With that said, I doubt he will he easy for Elidibus to control and that may very well result in Elidibus deciding to murder him and ascend to the throne as 'Zenos'. This is more likely if he is approaching the final phase of his plan to revive Zodiark, as the need for subtlety would be much lesser at such a point.

[Lauront]

The events of Goug happened long before the Garleans arrived in Ilsabard. [...snip...]

Great post.

Ultimately the empire and their characteristics are going to be under a microscope for some time as we presumably move towards it in the expansion. Every country has it's own blights in it's history and it's never as simple as "Well it's just the bad guy being the bad guy." There are many reasons that a country exudes it's influences. Security and prosperity seem to go hand in hand with this.

I think everyone is playing the part of doing what has to be done going forward. The empire will continue to exert pressure as to ward off an existential crisis. We cannot paint the Empire the same as her people as we don't know that all think the same way. There is a populares who seem to advocate for peace which I feel is probably a most genuine faction of the empire. Mother's regardless of political association aren't going to be be readily willing to send their sons off to war at the beckon call of the empire.

The other item to consider is that fear is a great way to enforce or gain control. I think as we move forward it's possible that we will see that the Ascian threat will be playing on the fears of the empire to execute it's bidding. We have liberated lands that belong to them and I am sure that looks threatening as an advance to take the empire.

Yes, good points, and this may tie into some of the events we see unfolding.

[Berethos]

@Berethos:

You don't consider it to be horrific persecution for a race to be driven out of fertile territory and forced to live into a wasteland that results in their numbers remaining dangerously low?

I don't.

The result of aggression against them, yes. A really tough situation to live in, sure. One could even call it being bullied (a form of persecution, but a lesser one, so don't think I'm trying to claim they weren't persecuted in any form) by stronger nations, but being bullied is still a step down from horrific persecution, which is the type you keep bringing up.

Horrific persecution goes beyond those kinds of things - as I said in my previous reply, it is likely to be something that is:

systemic, deliberate, targeted, and most importantly beyond the usual scope of similar actions.

Had those same tribes deliberately gathered prisoners that were specifically Garlean, made them march until they were near death, and then worked them until they were dead in mines and labor camps, and repeated this process, forcing the Garleans to live in fear of the next raid? That is the kind of thing that would qualify as horrific persecution, and those kinds of things are not supported as having happened in the lore we currently have.

Bullied, yes (once bullied, now the bully). Horrifically persecuted? Not so much.

Garlemald is not an stereotype evil empire who wants to conquer all.

If anything, they remind me of if you took the Spartans (hardy people, tough conditions) and combined them with the Romans (the ambition at the top level to conquer, varying degrees of politicking and support below that) and made them the antagonist, and while you're right that they aren't a stereotype of an evil empire (ruthless and ambitious, sure, but even Limsa can be described in that manner at times - the real difference is scope and where they have chosen to stand regarding other nations at the moment), the current official policy from the top is one of expansion with the goal of conquering as much of Hydaelyn as they can, so they kinda do want to conquer all (but, as I've said before, that's more down to the ambition of Solus and so far Varis - with the former dead it's not impossible that the latter could opt for a different course, though I don't think we've seen evidence of that yet).

[Anonymoose]

I feel like some of these words are getting thrown around a little recklessly.

Were the tribes that founded Garlemald driven from their lands because they were "inferior, third-eyed, magic-less abominations", or just because pretty much every society wars against their neighbors for territory, security, wealth, and influence? Are these cultural myths about righteous victims and cultural strength and persecution complex and so on objectively valid or just that - the cultural myths of a people made to feel weak who seized a different kind of strength and unity in their hardship?

Look at the words of Gaius van Baelsar:

For the world of man to mean anything, man must own the world. To this end, he hath fought ever to raise himself through conflict - to grow rich through conquest. And when the dust of battle settles, it is ever the strong who dictate the fate of the weak.

This isn't just ideology, it's history. Nigh a millennia of their history.

And on the flip side, yes, some of the Garlean-supremacist zealots in the Optimates do believe that surviving hardship, reclaiming a new strength, and making a comeback for the ages does give them the right to say, "The Garleans are objectively a superior race. We were pushed around, now we're going to do the pushing." And, yes, some of the Garleans are pacifists who want to be benevolent and focus on the homeland and the good of the people in their territories. And there are a dozen ideologies and worldviews inbetween.

In my humble opinion, some of you are are over-generalizing far, far too much. Even Harry Potter didn't paint with that broad of a brush. Garlemald has Malfoys and Garlemald has Dumbledores. Seven Hells, the "Malfoys" even tend to look like Malfoys.

Again, even Maxima, a ranking of the Populares, thought the fringes of the Empire just needed a firm hand and didn't realize until laying eyes on them that "mistakes have been made". Some Garleans think they're responsibly leading and elevating the world. Some Garleans think they can grind the world under their boot because only the purebloods matter.

[KageTokage]

Thordan could only pull that stuff off because you had already weakened the Ascians in question and he had the eye of Nidhogg at his disposal, and he was an eikon and able to manifest an aetheric sword to go along with it; it was an ideal set of circumstances. Bear in mind several of these things alone would not ordinarily suffice to slay an Ascian overlord. For Varis to pull off a similar feat would be rather incredible.

If you mean outsmarts, he may have greater chances there but again, Elidibus is a very skilled/gifted manipulator. Igeyorhm and Lahabrea were much more direct in their intentions.

I feel like it would be within the capabilities of the Garleans to design some manner of weaponry that's able to focus aether effectively enough to destroy Ascians if they've gone so far as to be able to artificially replicate the Echo (Though there's a rather large chance the Ascians were involved in that).

For that matter, I'm curious as to whether or not the Shadowhunter has been actually killing off lower ranking Ascians somehow, since even those require an extremely powerful aetheric force to destroy completely (If the HW SMN quests were any indication).

[Theodric]

@Anonymoose:

That's pretty much my stance as well. Garlemald needs to undergo reform, though it's far from the generic evil entity that some here like to paint it as. It also boasts a history rooted in strife, both in regards to what it has endured and what it has inflicted on others either directly or indirectly.

- - -

As for the other stuff...as I've said before, if anyone has an issue with my posts they're more than welcome to contact me in-game or request a chat over Discord to smooth out any issues. I won't tolerate personal attacks, though. Especially over something as meaningless in the grand scheme of things as the lore of a fictional setting. I'll assume we all come here because we enjoy the game's story, so it'd be nice if more people could learn to play ball. We don't have to be friends - though it really isn't hard to simply agree to disagree or change the subject when a debate starts to get intense and it's clear neither side is going to budge in their stance.

Perhaps part of the problem is posters not seeing where I'm coming from? I'm not particularly fond of the likes of Zenos or Aulus. I am, however, rather fond of the likes of Regula and Gaius. It's not unreasonable to consider them to be nuanced and fairly honourable - if a little misguided at times. They're representative of the Garlemald I want to see more of - and thankfully we're heading in that direction with close certainty. At the same time, though, I'm not terribly interested in seeing people throw around terms such as 'evil' when it comes to describing Garlemald as a whole. It simply isn't true. So, if we can agree to that not happening then I'm happy to keep quiet myself.

I feel like it would be within the capabilities of the Garleans to design some manner of weaponry that's able to focus aether effectively enough to destroy Ascians if they've gone so far as to be able to artificially replicate the Echo (Though there's a rather large chance the Ascians were involved in that).

For that matter, I'm curious as to whether or not the Shadowhunter has been actually killing off lower ranking Ascians somehow, since even those require an extremely powerful aetheric force to destroy completely (If the HW SMN quests were any indication).

I suspect that he may have been empowered by someone or something. Perhaps the Heart of Sabik? I do think it is likely that he came to the conclusion that Ascians were the real threat and that most other conflicts are just the petty squabbling of mortals by comparison. I'm also very curious to learn just who his two companions are. I'm sure at least some of our questions will be answered as of 4.4, though.

[Kusanagi7]

whatever helps you sleep at night you do you.