How much tenacity should have a tank for savage?

[Aana]

Stuff about parry/ten.

There are a lot of reasons why this doesnt quite line up. The early posts on tenacity did not have the sample size needed to parse out the 1% mitigation per 200 tenacity. People tossed on some Ten gear, got hit by some mobs and couldnt really 'see' a difference and many claimed it was broken/did nothing. That was found to be untrue over time.

* Tenacity is a flat % damage reduction. It works similar to crit in this regard. Low amounts of crit are not very useful. High amounts of crit is VERY powerful. The more you have the better it gets. Mitigating 3% damage with tenacity is pretty laughable. Mitigating 90% of damage with tenacity is OP as fudge.

* Parry was the opposite. At infinity amount of parry you had 100% parry rate which was only 20% reduction (phy only) mitigation. Compare this to infinity tenacity. You are literally invincible with 100% mitigation. However at lower levels you saw ok-ish gains from parry.

Ten was introduced at a stat reset lv 70, so we can never compare heavensward parry rates with stormblood tenacity because the numbers of secondary stats was reset and inflated so there is no 1 to 1 comparison anymore.

Parry had more notable returns defensively at low ammounts, but fell off hard AND had zero offensive capability (HW Drk was more impacted by using parry abilities than actually gearing parry). But even this bonus was watered down by all 3 tanks. Raw intuition made parry 100% useless for 20/90 seconds. Pld shield blocks reduced parry blocks. Drk's Dark Dance reduced the value of parry by giving free parry rate boosts on a high uptime, low CD ability.

Parry had no offense, the gains it had were watered down by bad synergy with shields and parry abilities. Tenacity is a far more consistent defensive ability that doesnt penalize you offensively the way parry did, and has some potential to be useful in progression and late in the expansion cycle because it scales better. The same way that at 4.0 direct hit was the best for nearly every class, but as we have more and more stats, crit is overtaking it class by class over time.

200 Ten is 1% mitigation. People can currently stack about 2000 (after the 364 base) so you can walk around with 10% mitigation at all times. That is the same as about a 50% parry rate, but it applies to EVERYTHING. You did not reach 50% parry rates from gear alone in the past, especially with all the neutering of shields and parry based CDs. Ten is flat out better defensively and offensively. With another Ilvl patch to 390 coming up soon, that 10% mitigation will only go up to 12-13%. This is of course if you go all in on Ten, which is not advised, but you can definitely see why this can be useful for undergeared progression. Tanks that take 10%+ less damage lets you survive things you are woefully undergeared for. But for the 99.9% of players that are NOT world 1st prog people that is entirely unneeded.

Ten was a giant step up from parry in every respect and now a much less damning stat for a defensive build, but ultimately still not recommended over traditional offensive stats baring bleeding edge progression.

[ArianeEwah]

Even more stuff about Ten/Parry

I checked again where the rumors about Tenacity being worse than Parry came from. And you are right, people either didn't see the effect of Tenacity and/or claimed that Parry could provide up to +60% parry rate which simply isn't true.

According to this research I melded to 1187 parry for sh*ts & science a full parry melded gear increased the parry rate to roughly 40% up from 10% base parry rate.
That's just about 6% physical mitigation bonus (+30% rate on a 20% mitigation parry) which is even worse than "meh".

*As this "research" and I have already mentioned parry didn't (and still doesn't) mitigate crit-hits. Which means that even with increased parry rate you were still below the "promised" rate because crit-hits have higher priority than parry or block.

*Tenacity, on the other hand, mitigates all kind of damage, not just magical and physical damage, but also reduces the damage when parried or blocked, even crits, and it adds up with other defensive CDs. In addition to this, the mitigiation bonus actually at least TWICE as good as parry ever was. You mentioned the mitigation bonus of Tenacity with 390-400 being around 12-13%. If I can foresightful determine the max. amount of this stat, and compare them to the bonus with the sheet list from my last post, I get the same result. This means grants double the mitigation bonus of parry (still physical only).

Back to the point that Tenacity materia is pretty cheap compared to Determination or DH/Crit, yet still grants 3/4 of their damage bonus, AND helps you surviving better even by a little, it is indeed THE tank stat to go for.
*If you'd have about 4k DPS with a Crit/DH/Det build, you'd do just 30-40 DPS less with Ten ONLY. In the end, if you guys don't do any speed kill runs, you probably wouldn't even notice a difference!

[aqskerorokero]

seriously, I don't notice the dps difference with ten med and crit/dh meld ether.....

[Kabooa]

The average difference is small, but Crit/DH spikes higher, so if you care about FFLogs you go with that.

[Hierro]

Back to the point that Tenacity materia is pretty cheap compared to Determination or DH/Crit, yet still grants 3/4 of their damage bonus, AND helps you surviving better even by a little, it is indeed THE tank stat to go for.
!

Now hold your horses, just because tenacity isn't bad doesn't mean it's the best.

[Kabooa]

Now hold your horses, just because tenacity isn't bad doesn't mean it's the best.

I mean, she said Tank stat. Not Discount Samurai stat.

[whiskeybravo]

It's just kind of a silly question. There isn't really a debate between no tenacity and 2000+ tenacity. Most BiS builds still have 800ish tenacity. So at most you are getting an additional 5-6% mitigation right now. How much mileage you get out of that 5% depends on content. It's not much on the low end of savage, a little more worth on the high end of savage and in ultimate where tanks are taking 3-5 million in total damage. You don't need to "have" any tenacity for savage, but you will have some regardless because it's on our gear. More if you want it.

[Hierro]

I mean, she said Tank stat. Not Discount Samurai stat.

Discount samurai? Last I checked, DPS tanks were useful and desirable.

[ArianeEwah]

Now hold your horses, just because tenacity isn't bad doesn't mean it's the best.

It's best for tanks, but I am blue DPS anyway, so I am not going for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Capn_Goggles]

It's best for tanks, but I am blue DPS anyway, so I am not going for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah I'm not sure what this tank thing you're talking about is, but I'm having a hard time queuing up for dungeons because nobody plays blue or green DPS.