State of the Game: Savage+ Dungeons and End Game Leves

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'm starting to understand that it's pointless talking to Kisai. There have been quite a few questions posed to them, and they ignore them for whatever reason. Let's just celebrate the fact that the CMs are going to forward the idea up and hope that the devs seriously consider it. This would be very fun to get into, to be honest.

There really isn't a point, though this is something of a unique situation since Ridrina commented. I feel more compelled to humor her because, ironically, she's the perfect outlet to emphasise why content needs improvement. Yoshida lamented a few months ago how Warriors never want to use Defiance. Thanks to Kisai quoting my post from the tank forums, hopefully they can actually see why many tanks avoid tank stance like it's a plague. Contrary to popular belief, many players and raiders alike want increased healing demands and fights that actually require tank stance be rotated to survive. A suspect very few healers enjoy spending 60-80% of their casts on Stone IV, Broil and Malefic III, but when none of the content require they do much healer, well, what else are they going to do, sit there?

Perhaps this continued discussion will finally prove parsers do not beget toxicity, they are simply a tool which can greatly assist players seeking to improve. Considering the devs want to shrink the skill gap, this is the ideal solution. With that in mind, no one, raider or non-raider alike wants toxic people screaming down aspiring inexperienced players. We want those types of people (they aren't just raiders) dealt with. And we ask the dev look beyond parsers and see toxic people are the minority.

So in a sense, Kisai's given us a platform that I appreciate Ridrina acknowledging.

[KaivaC]

There really isn't a point, though this is something of a unique situation since Ridrina commented. I feel more compelled to humor her because, ironically, she's the perfect outlet to emphasise why content needs improvement. Yoshida lamented a few months ago how Warriors never want to use Defiance. Thanks to Kisai quoting my post from the tank forums, hopefully they can actually see why many tanks avoid tank stance like it's a plague. Contrary to popular belief, many players and raiders alike want increased healing demands and fights that actually require tank stance be rotated to survive. A suspect very few healers enjoy spending 60-80% of their casts on Stone IV, Broil and Malefic III, but when none of the content require they do much healer, well, what else are they going to do, sit there?

Perhaps this continued discussion will finally prove parsers do not beget toxicity, they are simply a tool which can greatly assist players seeking to improve. Considering the devs want to shrink the skill gap, this is the ideal solution. With that in mind, no one, raider or non-raider alike wants toxic people screaming down aspiring inexperienced players. We want those types of people (they aren't just raiders) dealt with. And we ask the dev look beyond parsers and see toxic people are the minority.

So in a sense, Kisai's given us a platform that I appreciate Ridrina acknowledging.

I just hope that the team actually gives it some serious consideration.

I tend to miss out on discussions outside of the GD section, but I do agree that things like tank stance do need to be meaningful. Just from personal experience alone, I can say that I've found that there was no point in keeping a tank stance on in practically all content, save for initial pulls. Amongst all the raiders that I know on the forums and those on Siren, Cactuar, Gilgamesh, and Mateus, I can agree that none of them shoot down new/inexperienced players. I personally feel that the whole issue with skill gap will not be addressed by dumbing down content, but rather, supplying players with the tools in order to play better if they desire it. Hopefully if the devs pick up on this, this will open up a door between us and the devs for discussing new ideas.

That's one thing that I will compliment Blizzard on, particularly with OW, as I have extensive experience with the community. Jeff Kaplan does take feedback fairly seriously, and given how much Yoshi has taken inspiration from WoW, I think this thread is a great opportunity to start off. And not just with them taking feedback from the JP community, either.

[ko_]

Be the change you want to see in the world.

That saying gets me. Only cause it feels like an impossible feat. in some cases. Like not defending her. But she'll never be able to change what other people do. No one is going to stop metering if she manages to beat sav without the tools. But i understand your point.

[KaivaC]

But she'll never be able to change what other people do. No one is going to stop metering if she manages to beat sav without the tools. But i understand your point.

True...however, it at least gives her room to actually talk and have a platform to stand on. As it is, her repeated claims is just white noise, driven by next to no knowledge aside from what she datamined on her PC. Oh, and experiences that she's had in Mabinogi, which honestly doesn't belong in discussion of the likes of FFXIV and WoW.

[KisaiTenshi]

You keep prattling on about parsers. Okay. Go ahead. Explain to the class how an absence of parsers make this content harder.

A strategy should be formed organically, not because "meta demands it", all the abusive green DPS fights pre-SB were a direct result of this. Even Yoshi-P said they don't design any content with the healer's DPS in mind. Content taking longer doesn't mean it's harder, content taking longer is because the players need to form their own strategy. By being told the "meta" for the most efficient strategy that was data mined out of parses, you deprive players who have not yet played the content any choice. You either play it that way or you get the booted because the raiders are hostile to anyone who doesn't parse at their level. That's toxic.

You have yet to explain how a parse makes content easier.

Everyone that uses it seems to care more about their own score on a third party site called fflogs, rather than helping PUGs learn the content. All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content. Meanwhile people who do want to learn the content will not since nobody is willing to play it knowing those raiders will kick them. Thus they push the content off to a later patch and have to clear it unsynced if they want the clear. That's why the EX content clear rates go from 1% at release to 25%-30% after the major content patch. Unsync party clear... there is no fun in unsync clears. Maybe if some of these EX contents had 10% clears that would tell the devs to make it harder. Instead I'm pretty sure 1% clear rate is either telling Yoshi-P that the content is too hard, or the content is too boring or both.

If you want to see an improvement in participation rates for hard content, the entire attitude towards raiders and raiding behavior needs to be pushed towards helpful instead of selfish.

There really isn't a point, though this is something of a unique situation since Ridrina commented. I feel more compelled to humor her because, ironically, she's the perfect outlet to emphasise why content needs improvement. Yoshida lamented a few months ago how Warriors never want to use Defiance. Thanks to Kisai quoting my post from the tank forums, hopefully they can actually see why many tanks avoid tank stance like it's a plague. Contrary to popular belief, many players and raiders alike want increased healing demands and fights that actually require tank stance be rotated to survive. A suspect very few healers enjoy spending 60-80% of their casts on Stone IV, Broil and Malefic III, but when none of the content require they do much healer, well, what else are they going to do, sit there?

That we can agree on.

[SargentToughie]

Everyone that uses it seems to care more about their own score on a third party site called fflogs, rather than helping PUGs learn the content. All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content. Meanwhile people who do want to learn the content will not since nobody is willing to play it knowing those raiders will kick them. Thus they push the content off to a later patch and have to clear it unsynced if they want the clear. That's why the EX content clear rates go from 1% at release to 25%-30% after the major content patch. Unsync party clear... there is no fun in unsync clears. Maybe if some of these EX contents had 10% clears that would tell the devs to make it harder. Instead I'm pretty sure 1% clear rate is either telling Yoshi-P that the content is too hard, or the content is too boring or both.

If you want to see an improvement in participation rates for hard content, the entire attitude towards raiders and raiding behavior needs to be pushed towards helpful instead of selfish.

You heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. Raiders don't help new people clear things like EX primals and savage fights exclusively because all we care about are our siq parses. It has nothing at all to do with us not wanting to waste our time spending hours hand holding people through content that we've already mastered. Were it not for parsers and FFlogs, PF would be flooded with people just frothing at the teeth to waste away their hours being the shining, radiant pillars of the community that the casual players so fully deserve.

Remember, raiders: the casual playerbase is entitled to your time. If you don't wanna spend your evenings babysitting 'learning' parties and watching people with no self reflection skills die to the same mechanic several dozen times in a row, that makes you a selfish asshole.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I just need to keep going here, because the implication really upsets me in a way that very few comments do. I told myself I wasn't going to waste any more words replying to a Kisai post but here we are.

A person's time on planet Earth is one of the most precious, finite resources that they can offer. I think it's completely, perfectly valid to not want to spend any of it on people that have absolutely no respect whatsoever for the time that you spend helping them learn. The sheer gall to be able to say "Oh no it's all the Parser's fault all they care about is FFlogs" just hits me in a place that I'm not okay just ignoring.

No, it's not about the parses, or the arbitrary glowing colored numbers on a website that all of like 500 people tops give a toss about. My time is more precious than either of those. The fact that you even implied that it's just for fflogs is just appalling.

[Nixxe]

A strategy should be formed organically, not because "meta demands it", all the abusive green DPS fights pre-SB were a direct result of this. Even Yoshi-P said they don't design any content with the healer's DPS in mind. Content taking longer doesn't mean it's harder, content taking longer is because the players need to form their own strategy. By being told the "meta" for the most efficient strategy that was data mined out of parses, you deprive players who have not yet played the content any choice. You either play it that way or you get the booted because the raiders are hostile to anyone who doesn't parse at their level. That's toxic.

Strategies are formed organically. The meta is determined through a variety of things, including quantitative performance feedback gained by parsing. The meta derives from organically achieved solutions to problems presented by content, not the other way around. Yes, there will be players who do not really understand what they're looking at or talking about who may blindly copy what better players are doing and this may make for a somewhat rigid and unforgiving pug environment at times. However, nobody can actually stop you from doing the content. If you want to do it without parsing or caring about the meta, find some people who think the same way you do and form your own static. Hydaelyn knows there are enough of you complaining in the forums that it shouldn't be that hard to make happen.

As much as you may insist that it's toxic to let manually created groups enforce their own standards for membership and participation, I daresay it's vastly more so to treat all other players as nothing more than a means to an end, a vehicle to carry others who did not put in the same time and effort to get good at the game. Everyone is here to enjoy the game on their own terms. You're here complaining about a lack of choice being toxic while demanding other players not be given a choice you disagree with. You're no better than the people you complain about.

[KaivaC]

A strategy should be formed organically, not because "meta demands it", all the abusive green DPS fights pre-SB were a direct result of this. Even Yoshi-P said they don't design any content with the healer's DPS in mind. Content taking longer doesn't mean it's harder, content taking longer is because the players need to form their own strategy. By being told the "meta" for the most efficient strategy that was data mined out of parses, you deprive players who have not yet played the content any choice. You either play it that way or you get the booted because the raiders are hostile to anyone who doesn't parse at their level. That's toxic.

Okay then, Kisai. Let's turn your little argument to something specific, see if you can actually answer this. Apply what you are saying to Deltascape Savage 3, or Sigmascape Savage 7. Define to me, and others, how the "meta", or rather, "parsers" (but really, you're talking about triggers) deprive players of "organic strategy". Educate me, because I surely do not understand (and keep in mind, I cleared V3 without knowledge of parsers).

[Paladinleeds]

If you want to see an improvement in participation rates for hard content, the entire attitude towards raiders and raiding behavior needs to be pushed towards helpful instead of selfish.

If a group is OK with reduced chest count for the current tier Savage, I'm happy to help once the weekly clears are done with the raid team (at the end of the day we are a raid team and we have to make sure we're giving ourselves the best shot at loot on stuff we have on weekly farm, I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation of the group you play with week in week out). For Ex primals which don't have that chest count reduction lockout, sure, let's get teaching and practicing. I haven't been doing the hard content recently because of health issues, but when I did, that was the approach I took. I'm also technically a raider (though more on the casual side). I don't use a parser either. Tell me again how I'm a part of the problem. Most of my static were also very much up for helping others out too.

[ImDingDing]

With current end game gear progression. This just wont work. They need to rework on end game gear ilv and loot in order to make fair reward for those content.